Percentage of skiers that can carve a turn... way too small...

[Guy in Shorts]

With far less than stellar arc to arc carving skills platform angle is my primary tool of choice to ski the great lines that I love everyday. Some days if we are lucky there is fresh powder or wind pack to soften up the hard eastern undercoat. Count me in the percentage of those that can't carve a perfect turn but I can turn well enough in ice covered moguls to get to ski all the untracked powder.

 

[Brad J]

Is that SS looks different with the base configuration ??, I loved the old SS the new version not so much

 

[Atomicman]

Many can't carve as they are on 90mm skis. Hard to get those puppies over to edge.

Absolutely NOT TRUE!

 

[Quandary]

Many can't carve as they are on 90mm skis. Hard to get those puppies over to edge. But I would have to agree that few can really carve.

Mmmmm, I better let my Mindbender 108s know that, seems they've been over achieving........

 

[BMC]

Quoting from the article:

In Diagram 6, the arrows signify roughly where the pressure will be at its greatest. This means that I need to be in a strongly inclined position (with appropriate angulation) at these points and what happens in between is not so important as the pressure I am dealing with is negligible or aligned with the direction my CoM is travelling.​

​

View attachment 125690 ​

So why do we need to ski the entire turn perfectly stacked?

Looping back up in the article:

The position in “Diagram 3” is very common among high level skiers and particularly candidates around level 3/4. This “over-angulation” is just as unbalanced and possibly more dangerous than if the skier were to incline or completely bank into the turn as in the first diagram. The ski is over edged and the centripetal force has to go somewhere as it is not opposed or balanced. This usually results in over straining of the leg muscles to deal with the pressure and failing that, the skis jetting out in front of the skier. Over angulation often feels like there is too much pressure or increased “g-force” through the turn. It can feel like leg muscles are struggling and your whole body is getting smaller. This struggle is not only uncomfortable, it also prevents the skier from moving further inside further and increase in edge angle and centripetal pressure. At slow speeds this position can be dealt with through muscular effort. The interesting thing is that most people would say that this is a good position.​

​

View attachment 125689 ​

And further down....

....being inclined enough.... The turning becomes extremely smooth. One can build more pressure due to the extreme edge angle of the outside ski and there is no struggle to be felt. That feeling of “g-force”, pressure, strength and struggle as felt in the over-angulated position was not there. It feels simple and easy because the forces are aligned and the skeletal system is doing its job.​

Working on toppling this past Australian season I experienced this relaxed, no struggle carving whilst making probably the best angles ever. Huge reduction in effort. Recommend trying it out.

Thredbo!

 

[WynnDuffy]

Carving on skis is 99% feel. I have no idea how you teach that. If someone's body position is perfect, they still need to feel the edge hook up and rocket around, especially in East Coast mixed conditions.

I was an odd duck as a kid. I studied WC racers on TV like Tom Brady studies defences. Then out on the slopes I have always been inspired by good hardboot snowboarders laying trenches. I don't see them much anymore, but there is something soulful about the arcs they lay down. I wanted that feeling on skis.

Bob

Carving is a different feel for sure. The way I was taught was to make traverses on an easy green and progressively digging in more edge until you get the "bite", at which point your ski will promptly head uphill and then you'll come to a stop. That teaches you the feeling. Do that a few times so people know what they're chasing and what it feels like when they catch it.

The tricky thing is teaching people to link carves because that requires going to the downhill edge of their uphill ski, and most skiers have spent their entire careers never letting their downhill edge engage. I've taught a few people (not tons) how to carve and I'm constantly adjusting this step. Now what I want is a long stretch of easy green that someone can comfortably straightline (so fear of too much speed won't make them want to skid). Then make very shallow carves that take you maybe 10 degrees left and then 10 degrees right. This way their downhill edge isn't *too* downhill. But this step is still pretty tricky so if anyone has a better way to teach it, I'd love to know.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....Now what I want is a long stretch of easy green that someone can comfortably straightline (so fear of too much speed won't make them want to skid). Then make very shallow carves that take you maybe 10 degrees left and then 10 degrees right. This way their downhill edge isn't *too* downhill. But this step is still pretty tricky so if anyone has a better way to teach it, I'd love to know.

This is how I teach it. Not from a traverse, but from a straight run.
This progression does require a beginner pitch to maintain the sense of safety should things go right and speed increase.

 

[anders_nor]

Teaching a friend the last few weeks, he seems to think the entire carve, and pressure is set immediatly and instant when you change directions at end of turn.
He has been watching a lot of ski racing on tv lately

Today was his first proper high edge angle for a few turns, stoke was real. stopped soon after to see if I had seen it

 

[Tony Storaro]

Teaching a friend the last few weeks, he seems to think the entire carve, and pressure is set immediatly and instant when you change directions at end of turn.

Give him a fly rod and make him cast a line. I am serious. The requirements for power application are exactly the same.

 

[geepers]

Thredbo!

Perish the thought!

Actually pref Thredbo. But they are limiting numbers again this season and getting a pass is going to be a pita.

 

[Goose]

Mmmmm, I better let my Mindbender 108s know that, seems they've been over achieving........

But I would ask (respectfully), just how well are these carving on eastern hardpack with steel plate ice under the whopping 1 inch of groomed flakey powdered sugar on top?

I mean there is a reason they make short radius skinny carving skis. And even those are going to require some measure of skid/carve depending on conditions such as ski tune, slope steepness, speed, and snow conditions even for the more advanced skiers.

Just as 108's are better tools for a certain job, so are carving skis. I dint doubt your ability to lay RR tracks when conditions allow and heck if your good enough you may even be doing it better than less ability skiers with carving skis. But that said, you will reach a point of little return much sooner as less favorable conditions increase. imo

 

[Quandary]

Fortunately I don't ever have to subject myself to that pain and agony. However I did grow up skiing in Wisconsin on iced out mole hills. The widest ski I ever had in those days was a pair of K2 3s! The most we did in those days would be the equivalent of a slarve as I recall.

 

[slowrider]

Skied mid-thigh medium density pow yesterday on 170cm 15m tr skis. What carve?

 

[WynnDuffy]

But I would ask (respectfully), just how well are these carving on eastern hardpack with steel plate ice under the whopping 1 inch of groomed flakey powdered sugar on top?

I ski the east, and at a small mountain that unfortunately lacks much snowmaking (Magic Mountain). So I think I probably get as much ice as anyone. It's still not heard to carve on 108's on boilerplate.

Now, put me in a GS course with my 108's vs my 62's and the results will be very different. But if we're simply talking about getting on the carve and getting a nice "whoosh" feeling then virtually any sidecut ski can do it in virtually any conditions. The only conditions I can't carve in is soft snow, even soft packed snow, because then the tips keep wanting to bury.

 

[Paul Lutes]

With far less than stellar arc to arc carving skills platform angle is my primary tool of choice to ski the great lines that I love everyday. Some days if we are lucky there is fresh powder or wind pack to soften up the hard eastern undercoat. Count me in the percentage of those that can't carve a perfect turn but I can turn well enough in ice covered moguls to get to ski all the untracked powder.

View attachment 125983

You're bindings are broken. Otherwise you could carve those trees right off the face of the mountain.

 

[anders_nor]

dude on local mountain was carving on tele today, HARD. we had a nice sync, where I could see him do a big stretch from lift every lap I did. Tele carving is just elegant.

 

[Jacob]

dude on local mountain was carving on tele today, HARD. we had a nice sync, where I could see him do a big stretch from lift every lap I did. Tele carving is just elegant.

A few years ago in Val d’Isere I saw a guy skiing tele switch like it was no big deal. Anytime I ever start thinking I’m a decent skier, I just remember that guy.

 

[Tony S]

You're bindings are broken. Otherwise you could carve those trees right off the face of the mountain.

Have a feeling that might have been Guy's buddy on the tele sticks.

 

[Mark1975]

dude on local mountain was carving on tele today, HARD. we had a nice sync, where I could see him do a big stretch from lift every lap I did. Tele carving is just elegant.

I just saw the same thing today. Yesterday, we had the classic New England wet slop snow - turn into rain - then freeze solid overnight event. The mountain attempted to groom it, but it ended up being ground ice - which amazingly resembles beach sand - over top of a sloped hockey rink. Since 98% of the skiers at this mountain can't carve a turn, it was scrapped down to the hockey rink within 30 minutes. I was watching all the carnage of skiers and snowboarders doing faceplants, and along comes this dude on a tele setup carving railroad tracks in the ice like it was nothing. Freaking impressive!

 

[François Pugh]

Mmmmm, I better let my Mindbender 108s know that, seems they've been over achieving........

The weather man said it was going to rain this afternoon, and I was patrolling at our other hill, the one without the rock garden I might have to ski in if someone managed to get injured in there. I figured I may as well take my "water skis"; I've been wanting to try them on the hard snow just to see how bad they were, and to see if these new lighter and not very long skis would be stable at speed. Fortunately the rain held off. Day started out freezing cold (i.e. literally below 0 C, 32 F) , but it got up to 6 degrees C by late afternoon and the snow was softer than usual. Not quite slush, but you could make a ski pole stick into it, and you could even carve a 2 inch deep trench in it by day's end. I can report the following.

Ski dimensions are 179 cm long, tip-tail-waist width specs are 138-108-131 for a 19 m side-cut turn radius, full rocker well matched to side-cut radius, no metal, lightweight, see more here https://4frnt.com/products/devastator?variant=1392967425
Skier is a 140 lb (at the moment), self-confessed carvaholic.

Yes I can carve clean turns with a 108 mm waisted ski on eastern groomed snow, and I'm sure I could do it on the typical boiler plate that a ski pole won't be able to stab. However, tipping those 108s onto their edges, compared to tipping 68 mm waisted carvers onto their edges is like you've been lifting weights with only the bar, and someone comes along and throws a bunch of weight on the bar. A heck of a lot more torque required. Once you have them nicely up on edge, increasing the edge angle isn't all that difficult (for me), but the initial tipping takes a lot more effort. I can easily see if someone skied those skis and only those skis in eastern conditions, they would have a hard time learning to carve. The feed back is, "This is way too hard; that can't be what I'm supposed to do." I knew better though.

I'm pretty sure if I skied these phat Devastators every day on our local conditions, I would wear out my old knees PDQ. I had been thinking now that I have modern deep snow skis, I can get rid of the old Volant Machetes. Not so; the machetes are preferable for the slush on top of hard pack and typical spring snow we have here, just not better for real deep snow where the skis rotate up on edge more about their central axis than about the edge of the ski.

The extra effort required didn't keep me from leaving a lot of beautiful carving trenches on the hill today.