Percentage of skiers that can carve a turn... way too small...

[Tony S]

just not better for real deep snow where the skis rotate up on edge more about their central axis than about the edge of the ski

Really nice observation about ski behavior on soft surface vs actually deep.

 

[Goose]

I ski the east, and at a small mountain that unfortunately lacks much snowmaking (Magic Mountain). So I think I probably get as much ice as anyone. It's still not heard to carve on 108's on boilerplate.

Now, put me in a GS course with my 108's vs my 62's and the results will be very different. But if we're simply talking about getting on the carve and getting a nice "whoosh" feeling then virtually any sidecut ski can do it in virtually any conditions. The only conditions I can't carve in is soft snow, even soft packed snow, because then the tips keep wanting to bury.

Carving on boiler plate isnt hard? and its also not any harder on 108's? I dont doubt you may have ability above most folks but that is one heck of a statement.

Technically for general carving ,....yes we can lay any ski over on edge and if sharp enough it will hold (relative to the conditions) regardless how wide and how far away the opposite edge of the ski is. I mean snowboards are very wide and they can carve, right? The snow doesn't know how far away that other edge might be.

But you even mention the difference between your 108's vs 62's. Its not only about the edge of course but certainly a number of other influences/factors are in play. One being (but not at all limited to) leverage angles and forces due to foot position and a few other things on slimmer vs a fatter ski. And as the conditions become firmer the 108's proportionally begin to lose out vs the 62 race carvers due to the many other factors. And so it is fair to then say it more quickly becomes more difficult on the fat skis. But even with the carvers we reach a point of hard ice and steepness that even a really good skier will be skid/carving.

Ive yet to see (except perhaps very rarest) a single video where one is truly fully carving arc to arc , making full turns on "steep gradient hard-ice". The only time I see it in so many of the ice oriented videos the gradient is less steep and or the so called ice condition isnt really a true accurate description of what we often experience and or also sometimes they are not making full turns. And even with those more favorable conditions there still is always some % of skidding or jumping or whatever else especially on the steeper portions. And thats often vids from very good skiers providing instruction for this purpose with very sharp skis and fine fitted equipment. And still even then there is at least some skidding going on unless as said we lessen the gradient or soften the ice or dont turn as much or any combo of those.

With that Im going to say.......due respect but I feel your way off by stating that its not hard to carve on boiler plate and especially so with 108's. Its often hard to do for many folks even with carving skis, now lets place 108's on their feet? But you say it isnt difficult and your not only doing it but also doing it on 108's on rock hard ice. If thats the case then i am very jealous (and more power to ya) because while I never claim im any skiing expert at all I do feel I can ski fairly well but on hard ice on steep Im just not carving easy at all. And if i did id be going like 70 mph. Perhaps I would grab my old Hockey equipment including my skates and then be better set for the task....lol.

 

[anders_nor]

@François Pugh I've skied the 194 devastator a few days in slush here recently, it carves surprisingly well, just gotto get it on edge, which takes some time from edge to edge

Also my friends comment that they can se my front & back ski flapppppety like Im jumping

I had to google boiler plate, but to get it correct, that is straight up ice? like rain, then massive freeze, like an ice rink?

 

[Andy Mink]

I had to google boiler plate,

When you can see the grass or dirt through the ice! That may be a little exaggerated but pretty close.

 

[anders_nor]

When you can see the grass or dirt through the ice! That may be a little exaggerated but pretty close.

aha, I've rarely skied that, but did experience it once aprox 14 months ago, went from -15c, to +10c and maybe +15c? with warm winds for 3 days, before -15c again very fast, it was interesting, I skied a 84mm deacon and was just to wide and not stiff enough, buddy was on 70mm skis... also borderline wide, real winner was the 60mm friend, what a totally wasted vacation, also covid hit shortly after....

 

[LiquidFeet]

I also use "boiler plate" and "bullet proof" for hard white snow that feels like a slab of polished marble.
"Salt on formica" is marble slab with a quarter inch of shaved ice on top after it has been groomed.
"Glare ice" or "water ice" is what I use for the transparent gray stuff.

All of these are familiar conditions in the North East US where I ski.

 

[Paul Lutes]

Carving on wide skis on hard snow is like skiing on 2x4s: sure, it can be done, perhaps even fairly well, but no one that's experienced narrow, carving specific skis would actually chose to do so when given a choice.

Unless you're just a contrarian, of course.

 

[KingGrump]

I also use "boiler plate" and "bullet proof" for hard snow that is white but feels like skiing on a slab of polished marble.
"Salt on formica" is that marble slab stuff with a quarter inch of shaved ice on top afteeer it has been groomed.
"Glare ice" or "water ice" is what I use for the transparent gray stuff.

All of these are familiar conditions in the North East US where I ski.

Most skiers have various terms for different types of snow. NE skiers have various terms for different types of ice.

 

[Ogg]

Most skiers have various terms for different types of snow. NE skiers have various terms for different types of ice.

And anything that isn't ice is called "powder".

 

[WynnDuffy]

Most skiers have various terms for different types of snow. NE skiers have various terms for different types of ice.

They say New England skiers have 20 different words for ice.

 

[markojp]

They say NE skiers think ice only happens in the NE.

 

[Goose]

They say New England skiers have 20 different words for ice.

No, you are mistaken.
They have 20 words,.....period.

 

[Ogg]

They say NE skiers think ice only happens in the NE.

No but we often chuckle at what some western skiers call icy.

 

[cantunamunch]

aha, I've rarely skied that, but did experience it once aprox 14 months ago, went from -15c, to +10c and maybe +15c? with warm winds for 3 days, before -15c again very fast, it was interesting, I skied a 84mm deacon and was just to wide and not stiff enough, buddy was on 70mm skis... also borderline wide, real winner was the 60mm friend, what a totally wasted vacation, also covid hit shortly after....

It also happens when rain washes off the loose 'snow' off a groomer - leaving the solid underneath. No re-freeze necessary.

 

[WynnDuffy]

Carving on boiler plate isnt hard? and its also not any harder on 108's? I dont doubt you may have ability above most folks but that is one heck of a statement.

Technically for general carving ,....yes we can lay any ski over on edge and if sharp enough it will hold (relative to the conditions) regardless how wide and how far away the opposite edge of the ski is. I mean snowboards are very wide and they can carve, right? The snow doesn't know how far away that other edge might be.

But you even mention the difference between your 108's vs 62's. Its not only about the edge of course but certainly a number of other influences/factors are in play. One being (but not at all limited to) leverage angles and forces due to foot position and a few other things on slimmer vs a fatter ski. And as the conditions become firmer the 108's proportionally begin to lose out vs the 62 race carvers due to the many other factors. And so it is fair to then say it more quickly becomes more difficult on the fat skis. But even with the carvers we reach a point of hard ice and steepness that even a really good skier will be skid/carving.

Ive yet to see (except perhaps very rarest) a single video where one is truly fully carving arc to arc , making full turns on "steep gradient hard-ice". The only time I see it in so many of the ice oriented videos the gradient is less steep and or the so called ice condition isnt really a true accurate description of what we often experience and or also sometimes they are not making full turns. And even with those more favorable conditions there still is always some % of skidding or jumping or whatever else especially on the steeper portions. And thats often vids from very good skiers providing instruction for this purpose with very sharp skis and fine fitted equipment. And still even then there is at least some skidding going on unless as said we lessen the gradient or soften the ice or dont turn as much or any combo of those.

With that Im going to say.......due respect but I feel your way off by stating that its not hard to carve on boiler plate and especially so with 108's. Its often hard to do for many folks even with carving skis, now lets place 108's on their feet? But you say it isnt difficult and your not only doing it but also doing it on 108's on rock hard ice. If thats the case then i am very jealous (and more power to ya) because while I never claim im any skiing expert at all I do feel I can ski fairly well but on hard ice on steep Im just not carving easy at all. And if i did id be going like 70 mph. Perhaps I would grab my old Hockey equipment including my skates and then be better set for the task....lol.

I guess we need to define boilerplate because maybe I'm talking about something else? There are patches of trail that are so icy that I can't really skid on so I look for the less icy parts to either side to scrub speed. If that's what you mean by boilerplate then I can't carve boilerplate on 62mm skis.

In my usage I use boilerplate for really icy days even by east coast standards, such as "it was boilerplate out there today". In that case, it is pretty easy to carve boilerplate on powder skis. Not with the same speed or power as 62's, but you can still carve.

I'm on my 62mm mogul skis most days so I'm not one of the "my 108s will do everything as well as my GS/mogul/shaped skis ever did!" type people.

 

[Ogg]

@Goose just curious but what 108 wide skis have you tried?

 

[Goose]

@Goose just curious but what 108 wide skis have you tried?

None, but that doesnt matter one bit. I have had no reason and that makes no difference at all as for anyone (or myself) understanding how it is that wider skies will be more difficult to carve and will proportionally diminish in that area of performance as the conditions diminish. Its why they make carving bias skis and is why there are different tools for different jobs.

 

[Goose]

I guess we need to define boilerplate because maybe I'm talking about something else? There are patches of trail that are so icy that I can't really skid on so I look for the less icy parts to either side to scrub speed. If that's what you mean by boilerplate then I can't carve boilerplate on 62mm skis.

In my usage I use boilerplate for really icy days even by east coast standards, such as "it was boilerplate out there today". In that case, it is pretty easy to carve boilerplate on powder skis. Not with the same speed or power as 62's, but you can still carve.

I'm on my 62mm mogul skis most days so I'm not one of the "my 108s will do everything as well as my GS/mogul/shaped skis ever did!" type people.

certainly we use the term subjectively. I actually dont think we are too far off from each others view.

 

[François Pugh]

What I mean by boiler-plate, is it's like ice, but the same colour as snow. If you try to stick a pole into it, it will not penetrate. Your boots will not leave footprints in it (of course - you can't even stick a ski pole in it), and they cannot hold you in place on the slightest slope. In a pinch, if the slope is mild you might be able to kick your boot toe lug into it a bit, or not - even boiler plate comes in different grades (like mild steel or surgical stainless). It can sometimes be found after a few rain-freeze events on a slope that gets groomed often enough to be packed down to a high density. It can also form on such slopes after a few hundred folk slide sideways on their skis or boards over the same snow, but don't quite create enough friction heat to melt it into blue ice before it refreezes.

@Goose Check your hearing aid batteries What I "heard" @WynnDuffy say was "not heard", as in unheard of. Maybe you're right and she was just mumbling.

I have found that carving boiler plate requires very sharp edges, sharp enough to shave with.

@anders_nor , I agree with your assessment; the only real design flaw for skiing hardpack is the effort required to get them from flat to tilted. I didn't particularly notice the Flippitty floppitty ends at speed on the new 2021 179 Devastators, but I kept them tipped over far enough when at speed for the edges to be making full contact, except during the very brief transitions.

 

[Blue Streak]

I have found that carving boiler plate requires very sharp edges, sharp enough to shave with.

That's why God invented these babies.