Ratio of Lesson to Non Lesson Days on the hill

[MarkG]

Just curious to hear from the instructors and lesson devotees. What have you found to be the best mix of lessons to days of absorbing the lessons to just free ski not thinking about technique days.

I really hope I articulated that well. Seems to me there should be a good balance of the three, but I have no idea where that balance lies.

 

[geepers]

Lesson devotee POV.

Varies depending on the student and what the student is trying to accomplish. If the desire is a rapid change then frequent lessons - daily to every couple of days - until the changes are acquired and begin to consolidate is very helpful. At that point mileage is key with regular check-ins to make sure things are staying on the straight and narrow - maybe weekly.

If the aim is less rapid change then a lesson per week will do. But there's going to be correspondingly slower progress.

Also useful are big groups of lessons fore bursts of improvements - workshops that run for, say, 3, 4, 5 days with a lesson each morning and afternoon. Followed by some time to absorb and try to incorporate all that was covered. But again follow-up check-ins are helpful.

Have found that multi-week workshops (e.g. 5 days per for weeks in a row) not quite so beneficial as could be expected. Can saturate. Although just skiing with a group of like-minded, similarly competent people for a few weeks pays dividends by itself.

Personally spend zero days not thinking about technique. Part of which is having the skiing appear relaxed and effortless.

 

[Prosper]

Just curious to hear from the instructors and lesson devotees. What have you found to be the best mix of lessons to days of absorbing the lessons to just free ski not thinking about technique days.

I really hope I articulated that well. Seems to me there should be a good balance of the three, but I have no idea where that balance lies.

There are so many factors (skier ability, skier age, skier goals, skier motivation, how often one gets to ski, type of lesson taken, instructor quality, etc) involved that its hard to provide a absolute answer. The right answer for one person might not be the right answer for you. If you provide a bit more information about yourself you might get a better answer tailored to you.

 

[MarkG]

LOL, I was afraid of that.

Me: Advanced Skier, Aged 54, All-Mountain skier with new found love for trees, I get in maybe 25 days/season on the hill mostly full days. Doing the Alpine Meadows Unlimited group lessons this year with some rather awesome ski instructors...bulk of whom are PSIA 3. Learned a ton not the least of which is I still have a ton to learn.

I pretty much try to take a lesson whenever I'm up, though usually traffic may say otherwise. That said, I'm wondering if the frequency of lessons is a little overkill...like would it be best to take a day working on pivot slips, one legged skiing drills or whatever as opposed to grabbing a lesson where we end up doing something completely different.

Does that help? Frankly, I'm planning out next season and trying to decide if I'm going to do the unlimited lessons again (which are awesome) vs getting a second pass to a closer hill where I can realistically duck out of work on a Friday and ski a few hours at random. In either scenario lessons at Alpine are still planned...but do I really need a coach 80% of my ski days.

Is there a better way to making the non-Squallywood (I don't need to huck massive cliffs) Palisades Tahoe terrain my oyster?


(yes, I could do Ikon, Sugar Bowl AND unlimited lessons...but then would I ever use Sugar Bowl since there's a lesson right down the road)

 

[pchewn]

The proper ratio is 3.14159 : 1 (free days : Lesson days)

This brings the whole learning process full circle.

 

[MarkG]

ok ok, it's kind of a dumb question now that I think about it.

 

[wooglin]

I’ve had one lesson as an adult, and have spent the last three years digesting it. Finally starting to see some results too!

 

[4ster]

I used to tell students that when what we worked on today begins to makes total sense or when you are thoroughly & utterly confused, it is time for the next lesson

 

[Bad Bob]

What @Prosper said.

On the personal skiing part of your question there is thought of technique or drills everyday on skis.

 

[Scruffy]

ok ok, it's kind of a dumb question now that I think about it.

It's not a dumb question. You can certainly overload on instruction. If you're in an unlimited lesson program, and you only ski 25 days a season, and you take a lesson every time you go, that doesn't leave a lot of time to work on what you've learned while free skiing. Try every other, or every third time, and see how that works for you. Is there an option to only lesson in the AM and them free ski the rest of the day?

Or, maybe you're getting more out of the group than instruction. Sometimes these season long group lesson type scenarios wind up being more about the group skiing together than the actual lesson.

Food for thought at any rate.

 

[Seldomski]

I take lessons for a few reasons and get different things out of them based on duration.

To make a lasting technique change, I have to take multiple days of lessons until I feel like I don't know how to ski anymore. That means I changed something with technique. Usually fall a few times unexpectedly in the process. After the change, I need to keep skiing under instructor supervision with it feeling 'weird' for a bit until it feels normal. Need to keep the instructor involved to make sure the change stuck and didn't revert. Then ski several days in the new normal and then resume the cycle. For me, very time consuming to make substantive changes in lessons. Also a lot of risk that the break between ski trips erases the gains...

Tactics can be faster turnaround. This could be directed tips for skiing a type of terrain. Like where to turn in bumps, where to pole plant in steeps, how much to steer the ski vs carve, etc. I can usually get a tactical tidbit in a an hour up to 1 day lesson. Then apply that for next 5+ days of skiing. Then do another to get another tactic (my brain is full otherwise).

Then there's the 'follow me' type lesson. This builds comfort or reduces fear for certain types of terrain. Or learn to ski powder. You just follow a better skier around and let them choose line and speed while you try to mimic what they do. You also can slowly pick things up via osmosis if you turn where and when they turn. I could do these every day and get a benefit (cost prohibitive, I don't have any good skier friends). I have had a couple of these where I get a tip or two from the instructor, but then we mostly just ski around (ie the I-booked-a-group-but-surprise-its-a-private-lesson).

I also try not to take a lesson on the first day of a ski trip... these usually are a waste because the time for me to get back to how I was skiing last time I went skiing usually takes a full day.

Also generally I am trying to work on something most of the time I am skiing. If I stop thinking about things to work on, or don't know what to work on anymore (and desire to improve) then I'll do another lesson. If my brain is full of stuff I know that is broken and I feel like I am still fixing it, then I hold off on lessons.

 

[BMC]

I reckon I’d average one lesson for each week of skiing. I also try to do a week long all day improvement camp every couple of seasons. Covid interrupted that, but hopefully I’m back at it in Oz this season.

That week aside though I’d just typically do a 2 hour private or afternoon lesson once a week or so.

My last lesson my instructor said he didn‘t think I really needed more lessons - he indicated I knew what I needed to do and just needed miles of applied skiing to embed it. That same message has been given in the past (ok only once!). My point here though is I do think at a higher level it does take quite some time of applied practice to embed a new movement. What’s the rule of thumb? 10,000 correct repetitions to embed it in memory? 1000 hours? Both? While you’re doing that with the 2 or 3 things you’re working on I find going for more lessons the following days and finding 2 or 3 additional things to work on counterproductive.

I think in the early to middle stages of progression lots of frequent lessons are valuable. Moving into higher levels I think the frequency of lessons doesn‘t need to be what it was. What you need at this stage is more of a coach than an instructor. Someone to remind you if you’re doing it right or wrong, take video, and the occasional drill to reinforce good movements.

All for me of course, and it may not be the same for everyone.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Sometimes an instructor will tell you that you just need to ski more.

 

[François Pugh]

666.
666 no-lesson ski days and 1 ski-day with a lesson included per every 667 ski days (based on my personal experience, which must be the correct ratio or I would have changed it. )

 

[Rainbow Jenny]

Alpine Unlimited is only for half a day, so practice the drills on the other half day.

 

[mdf]

My personal ratio is driven more by circumstance than design -- for the past few years (modulo covid) I take a "ski week" of lessons at Taos (6 mornings) and no others, out of a total of 20 to 30 days. (So 1/3 to 1/5).

Skiing with a group of good skiers (i.e. other Ski Talkers) makes a huge difference. Not only can you see what they are doing, it also resets your expectations of what is normal.

When I stopped and thought about the big group we had competently skiing double blacks at Aspen during the Gathering, I was amazed. Many of them are also doing the Taos ski week plus chase-better-skier mix, and many of them were intermediate skiers beginning to ski easy bumps when I met them not all that many years ago.

 

[François Pugh]

666.
666 no-lesson ski days and 1 ski-day with a lesson included per every 667 ski days (based on my personal experience, which must be the correct ratio or I would have changed it. )

Scratch that!
I would have taken a lesson from skinerd (his epic-ski user name) at Mt. Washington had he been available a couple of years ago, but despite repeated attempts on my part, his people let me that he was unavailable, all booked up with some multi-day camp he was teaching.

Using the new math, it works out to 500 to 1.

Not going to bother taking lessons now. I've accepted the fact that my skiing will only get worse as my diabetes and old age progresses.

 

[KevinF]

There's obviously as many answers to this question as there are posters in this thread... Bob Barnes mentioned the 20/60/20 rule that I've always liked:

1. 20% of the time you ski you get things as "right as possible". You are working on something and "getting it right". Runouts, flats, easy terrain, etc. is great for this. Never waste flat terrain; i.e., if you want to straight-line it across a flat, go for it -- but try it on one ski.
2. 60% of the time you ski you're just skiing, being mindful / aware of technique, but not necessarily "working" on it.
3. And the other 20% of the time you're skiing something that's harder than your ability level -- whether that be speed or terrain related or just doing a new drill that you find impossible. However -- you're taking note of both of what's working and what's not working, why you're uncomfortable. Is your weight back, are you rushing your turns, are you...? And you use that feedback to guide the first 20% (i.e., the "getting it right" part).

How you split that up is up to you. i.e., a whole day of the "getting it right" 20% or the "never waste a flat" theory. It all adds up.

 

[MarkG]

Alpine Unlimited is only for half a day, so practice the drills on the other half day.

HA, that would be the morning half where I'm seeking out parking. I'm only kind of joking. Alpine has made me much more of a morning person than I used to be.

Thanks everybody both publicly and privately. It's been a fun topic to see how you all approach the blend...even @ the 1 lesson to every 500 days on the hill.

 

[Chris V.]

After several very recent lesson sessions, I'm feeling it's the point to spend time on my own consolidating. Sometimes you get great exercises, but need a lot more repetition than the class format allows. Sometimes you need to set your own pace integrating a new focus into your regular skiing. I definitely have occasions where a new focus initially leads to other aspects of my movements falling apart. Then I have to take it slow, building up the speed, pitch, and terrain over time.