Ski Binding to Prevent ACL Injury

[firebanex]

I think they forgot to make a v2 of the knee. Instead they simply went to metal and plastic replacement parts that don't quite work as well as the OEM.

RE: Patrol diagnosis.. we can't do that. But we can say that we suspect a certain type of injury. Most folks are pretty understanding that we are not actually doctors.

 

[Dwight]

So you follow-up on all injured skiers you manage to learn the exact injuries, or do you have an MRI in your backpack?

I've blown my ACL. My wife has blown her ACL+MCL. I have a couple acquaintances that have blown their ACL. In all those cases, ski patrol didn't diagnose - other than to identify knee trauma as the injury. They didn't join us on the trip to the hospital/clinic either.

Never said diagnose, but for most major incidents at my hill, management does follow up. I only have stats at my hill and ACL is not the number 1 incident, not even close. Had friend blow both knees at once teacher her kid on slush snow.

I just don't prescribe to ACL/MCL being the biggest problem of skiing injuries. It would be interesting to see the percentage of ACL/MCL vs others in skiing and also compare to other sports, like soccer. Is the ratio similar or not?

 

[Wilhelmson]

In the old days before modern bindings, were people blowing out their knees all the time?

 

[Philpug]

In the old days before modern bindings, were people blowing out their knees all the time?

We fell different. Most falls were forward twisting falls, now they are rearward twisting.

 

[Monique]

I just don't prescribe to ACL/MCL being the biggest problem of skiing injuries. It would be interesting to see the percentage of ACL/MCL vs others in skiing and also compare to other sports, like soccer. Is the ratio similar or not?

What sorts of injuries are you comparing to ACL/MCL? A lot of things result in being carted off the mountain, but not all are severe. Similarly, people often ski down with injuries that turn out to be a pretty big deal.

I gather that a lot of people can ski down after an ACL tear. (Not me!)

We fell different. Most falls were forward twisting falls, now they are rearward twisting.

@Wilhelmson - My understanding is that there were commonly spiral fractures (nasty things), which are now pretty rare.

 

[Dwight]

We fell different. Most falls were forward twisting falls, now they are rearward twisting.

Why is that?

 

[Dwight]

What sorts of injuries are you comparing to ACL/MCL? A lot of things result in being carted off the mountain, but not all are severe. Similarly, people often ski down with injuries that turn out to be a pretty big deal.

I gather that a lot of people can ski down after an ACL tear. (Not me!)

Head, shoulder, arm, leg and hand injuries. All injuries. Maybe we are weaker in the Midwest. Most people don't ski or walk down after getting substantially hurt. Maybe in terrain park, but they usually end up walking into the patrol room later, if they can still remember where they are.

 

[Philpug]

Why is that?

The shape of skis and how we are skiing.

 

[mdf]

I skied out after both of my ACL tears, and did not report them to patrol. In fact, for the most recent one, I only told one person in my group I was hurt until after we were down.

And I didn't even fall down either time. Knees really are poorly designed.

 

[Dwight]

The shape of skis and how we are skiing.

I'll have to keep track of my falls this year, I mean picking my poles up.

 

[mdf]

About the OP in this thread. I tend to be annoyed by college students with silly projects like this, especially marketing majors asking about engineering issues. Well, duh, nobody ever told the the stupid engineers that they should make a product that works! Now that I have, everything will be fine.

But on further reflection, I would pay a fairly large premium for a knee-protective binding that I have confidence works as advertised without drawbacks in other areas. And for the most part the MBA's control the research or development budgets. So I guess it is worthwhile to tell them a market would exist.

I suspect the market is pretty narrow though -- beginners are not going to pay a big premium, skiing is already expensive enough. And experts who have not been injured will think it will never happen to them. So the market is mostly expert skiers who have already been injured (or had a close friend or relative injured).

 

[Monique]

About the OP in this thread. I tend to be annoyed by college students with silly projects like this, especially marketing majors asking about engineering issues. Well, duh, nobody ever told the the stupid engineers that they should make a product that works! Now that I have, everything will be fine.

Yes, but also engineering majors asking about engineering issues.

On the other hand - nobody ever built a better mouse trap by saying, "Eh, they must have thought of this already."

 

[Wilhelmson]

We fell different. Most falls were forward twisting falls, now they are rearward twisting.

For some reason most of my falls are forward, usually double ejection from a rock that's hidden in the snow. But at the same time I do occasionally get some side knee pain, probably from hitting a bump at a bad angle or backseat but not hard enough to fall or release the binding. I think my din is set for 8 which is appropriate for 175 lbs, 6 feet, 29.0 cm.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Hey everyone! I am a student at Lehigh University studying business and entrepreneurship. For one of my classes I've been tasked with creating a solution to one of the biggest problems in skiing, ACL injuries. Personally I ski a lot so I definitely have my own opinions on how it could be done, but I was interested to see what you guys think. I'm aware of knee bindings, but have heard a lot of complaints about them, and think there could be a better alternative. Is there any other things that I should look into? Also, if you have a minute and could fill out this survey (takes literally 30 seconds) it would be really helpful for my project. https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/QN3JMXH
Thanks!

Snowboarding?

 

[RuleMiHa]

Never said diagnose, but for most major incidents at my hill, management does follow up. I only have stats at my hill and ACL is not the number 1 incident, not even close. Had friend blow both knees at once teacher her kid on slush snow.

I just don't prescribe to ACL/MCL being the biggest problem of skiing injuries. It would be interesting to see the percentage of ACL/MCL vs others in skiing and also compare to other sports, like soccer. Is the ratio similar or not?

I think there's some confusion over what it means to give a diagnoses vs. knowing pretty much what's wrong. Giving a diagnoses often means meeting a certain amount of criteria on a checklist (two fevers within four hours plus x type of pain in the setting of....) but that doesn't mean someone won't know mostly what's wrong.

For instance, there is a condition called PID which has probably 10 criteria needed for a diagnosis. But there is a particular walk women will develop that is so striking even ER secretaries know mostly what it will be.

I have no doubt that while experienced patrollers don't/won't/can't diagnose a knee injury, that over time they develop a fairly reliable pattern recognition that says "when people limp over to the sled like that, it's an ACL". I would guess, regardless of what they tell you, they have a strong sense of what's been injured, despite not knowing exactly and to what degree. Just my $0.02

 

[Monique]

I would guess, regardless of what they tell you, they have a strong sense of what's been injured, despite not knowing exactly and to what degree. Just my $0.02

At the same time, I'm not sure that there's any benefit in having the patroller provide that opinion. And as pointed out above - they won't necessarily get the feedback loop of "I thought it was an ACL rupture, and sure enough, the doctor confirmed it was an ACL rupture."

In my case, the knee was so swollen that even a few days later, the doc couldn't evaluate the situation with the usual manual diagnostics. He had to wait on the MRI.

 

[Dwight]

Something like 50% of ACL/MCL can be figured out with knee tests. Not high, MRI is really the only way.

 

[mdf]

Yes, but also engineering majors asking about engineering issues.

On the other hand - nobody ever built a better mouse trap by saying, "Eh, they must have thought of this already."

It's not that they are asking, but that it is in such a superficial way.

 

[mdf]

Something like 50% of ACL/MCL can be figured out with knee tests. Not high, MRI is really the only way.

I would bet experienced orthopedist have a much higher inital accuracy than that, and general practitioners much lower. Manual evaluation may be dressed up as a science, but it is really an art.

 

[Bill Talbot]

I really feel that any significant advance in binding safety would bring more individuals to the sport.

Why do you WANT more people in the sport (assuming you don't profit from the increase)?
It's WAY to crowded out there now