ski clips to discuss...

[geepers]

My sense is that their point is something along the lines of, "You can't talk about ski technique without taking about ski technique." Anyone subjected to what passed for sex education fifty years ago knows exactly what I'm talking about.

First rule of Fight Club?

 

[Tony S]

I think that a professional skier, skiing in a professional capacity, i.e. promotional video or such, which is posted on a public arena like the internet, is fair game for MA. Constructive critiques can be informative and helpful.
On the other hand, I would be terrified to ever put up a video of myself skiing. Like being thrown to the wolves!!

I want to know if people think we can have this conversation meaningfully and productively without acknowledging the elephant in the room. ... Which is that Phil and Tricia are presumably and understandably concerned about the potential impact forum conversation might have on their ability to form business relationships with people and companies that might become subjects of (possibly critical) discussion. I.e., @graham418 , it may be less about the "what" than about the "who." This applies across all the forums, not just this one. There appears to have been a change in moderation policy over the last week or two. Where did it come from and why? If we can put that reality on the table, maybe we can arrive at better guard rails going forward.

 

[markojp]

Ask yourself this:
Is this something you would say to this person if they were in front of you?


This is good discussion.

^^^^ this times 10,000.^^^^
It's simple. Don't post if you can't imagine that the person you're critiquing standing in the group. Use the opportunity to speak as if you were actually teaching, and most importantly, don't forget that skiing is about joy as much as anything else... and mom rule 101, if you don't have anything constructive to say, say nothing at all. We need to remember what's being said is viewed by many who might be contemplating taking a lesson. Let's attract rather than drive away.

 

[Philpug]

Which is that Phil and Tricia are presumably and understandably concerned about the potential impact forum conversation might have on their ability to form business relationships with people and companies that might become subjects of (possibly critical) discussion.

This isn't about our business relationships...but frankly, the instructors business relationships and if is about our relationships, it is with the other readers.

One of the things we profess over and over...when you are answering or replying in a thread you are not replying to the original question, but also the thousands of eyes that might have the same question. I think it was said in the bootfitting fourm where someone replied "this is why people don't want to go to a bootfitter" Reading how some of the best skiers in the world critiqued ...it makes me understand why people don't want to take lessons.I have to wonder, how many things that are said about these professional skiers would you say if they were on a chair lift with you.

It's simple. Don't post if you can't imagine that the person you're critiquing standing in the group. Use the opportunity to speak as if you were actually teaching, and most importantly, don't forget that skiing is about joy as much as anything else... and mom rule 101, if you don't have anything constructive to say, say nothing at all. We need to remember what's being said is viewed by many who might be contemplating taking a lesson. Let's attract rather than drive away.

QFT.

 

[François Pugh]

IMHO, if you are a professional skier posting video on the internet of your skiing, you should be able to let people say what they want about it.

I'm quite willing and very interested to hear all opinions about all things, but I appreciate that others might not be. In particular this forum is supposed to be "ski talk at a higher level", so what appears to be blatant disrespecting someone's skiing is sure to be censored. The motive (as I see it) is to keep this place a place place people want to frequent. If I get tired of hearing nasty opinions about some subject that grates against my nerves, and I keep hearing too much of it in that place, I'll stop frequenting that place. So will others. Moderators do a good job of keeping this place from becoming that place (maybe for the advertising money they get by not driving folks away from the site).

As to "don't say on the forum what you wouldn't say to their face", well that might work for some people, but not so much for other people; I used to be very blunt and honest, too honest, whether face to face or not. As I get older I tend to be more mellow and have more consideration for not hurting someone's feelings just for the sake of speaking what in my mind is the truth - it's not the end of the world if I let some things slide.

On the other hand I can easily see how someone can eschew someone else's skiing. I used to be all about perfecting my chosen way of skiing and could really relate to descriptions like "He's really good at bad skiing." Now I'm more into exploring new (to me) areas of skiing and getting good at other things, other ways to ski. Would we have heard of Eddy Van Halen had he stuck to piano? Who knows? What if he hadn't started playing a guitar instead of just playing his drums?

 

[wooglin]

Stoke vids in ski school. Seems like a no brainer.

 

[tch]

Trashing a pro skier who posts a feel good video just doesn't set well with me.

^^^ Actually, I'd say trashing ANY skier who posts a feel-good video doesn't set well with me.

I think there are two categories: there are the folks who either explicitly ask for MA or who present themselves as examples. Then there are the folks who just put out a stoke video (and we have a couple of those folks here) for their own enjoyment/sharing. Category 1 is fair game for commentary. Category 2 is not.

If someone explicitly asked for your opinion about their fashion choices, or put themselves out there as a fashion arbiter, then you are free to comment/criticize/offer ideas.
Conversely, it is rude, uncouth, and un-called for to comment/criticize/offer ideas on fashion choice to just anyone who happens to be walking down the street towards you wearing something that makes them feel good.

 

[mdf]

I'm not sure where the line ought to be. I'm pretty sure that some are clearly at the "do not MA" end of the spectrum, and some are at the "MA this!" end. The middle is the problem. I think it has to rely on subjective judgement more than general principles.

On the other hand, I would be terrified to ever put up a video of myself skiing. Like being thrown to the wolves!!

Over many years, I've subjected myself to internet video MA at least twice. Nice doggy!

 

[Chris V.]

My first reaction to all this was, this forum is in danger of becoming boring. Just my opinion.

 

[jimtransition]

I haven't been involved in these threads, but it seems to me that critique of skiing is the point of a ski technique forum. If all we can say is 'nice turns' what is the point? All the videos are posted as self promotion, some paid promotion for brands, I think that makes them fair game for analysis.

Everyone is going to have different opinions about what looks good and how they want to ski, just because someone is an ex Olympian doesn't mean their skiing is automatically perfect, or that everyone should want to ski like them. I don't think trashing someone's skiing is very nice, but saying ' I would prefer to ski like X, for Y reason' seems pretty fair.

 

[JESinstr]

I had the last post on Eric's thread and I was trying to get a discussion going on a number of valid transitional techniques and this was apparently construed as MA? Go figure. MA is about the implementation of technique.

 

[LiquidFeet]

How SkiTalk deals with this current issue is important. We are at the point of losing something that makes this place special, the information-rich technical discussions that have been kept from devolving into train wrecks by well-done moderation. What's causing this crisis (yes, crisis) is the fact that we are discussing women skiers in the same way we discuss male skiers. Two threads taking the skiing of women seriously have been shut down.

For those who stumble upon this thread and don't know what we are discussing, here are the two threads in question.

Some nice short turns

www.skitalk.com

What stands out to you in this skiing?

In my inbox yesterday from Carv was a link to this clip of Kaylin Richardson. I absolutely love this skiing and aspire to ski in a manner that somewhat resembles this. So, what stands out to you in her skiing? For me, there were two things: Her toppling -- this is something I'm working...

www.skitalk.com

In these threads we were discussing in our usual way the movement patterns presented online by highly skilled female skiers, Kaylin Richardson and Valentina Frankhauser. These discussions were somewhat unusual for us because there aren't that many highly skilled women skiers putting their skiing online in professionally produced videos. Yes, we have online videos of Mikaela Shiffrin caught by photographers during races, and we have her promotional videos made during training sessions. But that's a little different because Mikaela is currently racing on the world cup for a national team and winning. When she retires and puts up instructional videos, she will enter the same arena as the two women discussed in these shut down threads.

The videos of Kaylin Richardson and Valentina Frankhauser are meant to help them in their professional ventures. We discussed them in those threads, there were the usual analytical observations and disagreements, no one got personal or if they did it was handled behind the scenes, the threads were going along as usual, and then surprise the threads got shut down. That was shocking to me. It was completely unexpected.

I don't think we need new rules. We need to give women skiers who are entering the arena of online inspirational videos the attention we've freely given male skiers. I was delighted when @Mike King started the thread on Kaylin Richardson and we took off doing what we do. Likewise when @Erik Timmerman started the thread on Valentina Frankhauser. I was shocked when those threads were shut down. Nothing unusual was going on.

We don't need new rules. The current rules are just fine. Discussions of women skiers don't call for revision of rules. We need more serious discussions of women skiers, not different discussions, and certainly not less. Finally we were getting them. Let's continue that, and not tip-toe around women's feelings. We didn't tip-toe when we discussed Deb Armstrong's video. It got a bit hot, but the thread did not get shut down. We uncovered some differences in opinion and kept going with civility despite some fundamental and strongly held differences in our reactions. That was good.

We can do that with Kaylin Richardson and Valentina Frankhauser as well, and we should. Please open the threads back up.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I hadn't made that connection, but there could be something to it.

 

[Tricia]

On the other hand, I would be terrified to ever put up a video of myself skiing. Like being thrown to the wolves!!

I'm not sure where the line ought to be. I'm pretty sure that some are clearly at the "do not MA" end of the spectrum, and some are at the "MA this!" end. The middle is the problem. I think it has to rely on subjective judgement more than general principles.

Over many years, I've subjected myself to internet video MA at least twice. Nice doggy!

I'll admit that I deliberately don't post any video of myself on line.
I have no issue taking video to share with a trusted instructor for my personal growth.
I know enough about my skiing to know that I'm pretty good, but I need more work and am constantly working on getting better and more efficient.
The last time I posted video there was a lot of critique that helped me but there were also some really mean comments by what I would consider good instructors. These are instructors I'd have taken a lesson with until I saw how they interacted. But I question if these people would interact in the same way if they were face to face. That is why I asked that members interact on the site as if they were face to face.

I remember when ESA started becasue people wanted lessons from the instructors that participated on the forums.
That level instructor doesn't partcipate here, some did in the beginning but no longer.
Something like ESA will never spawn out of this forum because the way instruction threads spiral.
There are (maybe) two instructiors who participate here that I would take a lesson with based on how they handle themselves in discussions.
That's sad.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

When those instructors did used to participate here "Epicski" discussion was free and open and nothing was off-limits and threads did spiral out of control. Now that we don't have that, they don't participate. I know instructors that were the "meanest" and have been banned that still get work from this site to this day.

 

[Steve]

That level instructor doesn't partcipate here, some did in the beginning but no longer.
Something like ESA will never spawn out of this forum because the way instruction threads spiral.
There are (maybe) two instructiors who participate here that I would take a lesson with based on how they handle themselves in discussions.
That's sad.

Wow, way to insult some of your most respected members. "(maybe) two" ?!!

This is why epic was better, it wasn't the decision made by 2 people, decisions were made by a group of people who discussed, didn't just react.

Yes, as @Erik Timmerman said things did spiral out of control, but heavy handededness turns people off, unless it's called for.

I miss all of those people who decided it wasn't worth being censored to participate.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I just watched a video in the last hour that I am burning to discuss, but I know it would be closed. Obviously this is how you stifle this forum and lose members. Time to step away from the computer for a bit.

 

[Philpug]

This is why epic was better, it wasn't the decision made by 2 people, decisions were made by a group of people who discussed, didn't just react.

No, closing of these threads was made by one person, me. I actually got resistance from Tricia. I moved proactively because the path the previous two threads went down and I expected this one would also. We have a responsibility to you, the posters but also the readers who are not logged in and just lurking. While I will take responsibility for closing it, the decisions was also with input from outside sources that we rely on as advisors who look at the site with a broader view.

But as I said in another article that is more (some of you might say privately) in my lane, "change my mind".

 

[Tricia]

When those instructors did used to participate here "Epicski" discussion was free and open and nothing was off-limits and threads did spiral out of control. Now that we don't have that, they don't participate. I know instructors that were the "meanest" and have been banned that still get work from this site to this day.

I've had conversations with more than one who don't participate here now but did in the beginning. Their critique was that we were too hands off with the instruction area and allowed discussion that felt like religious wars of methods.

I hold instructors up as the most valuable asset on the mountain, but its sad when the Ski School area of a web site has the most train wrecks and demands the most attention of the moderators.

Wow, way to insult some of your most respected members. "(maybe) two" ?!!

Sorry about that. It was not meant as an insult but a wake up call to pay attention to how we interact amongst each other.

I'm not singling any particular person out, and I know that most of the instructors here are highly qualified in their craft, but its my fear that being behind a screen allows some language that you (universal you, not specifically you) woudln't use face to face.

 

[mister moose]

I remember when ESA started becasue people wanted lessons from the instructors that participated on the forums.
That level instructor doesn't partcipate here, some did in the beginning but no longer.
Something like ESA will never spawn out of this forum because the way instruction threads spiral.
There are (maybe) two instructiors who participate here that I would take a lesson with based on how they handle themselves in discussions.
That's sad.

I disagree. I didn't spend more than 5 minutes on Epicski, so I don't know what you're referencing. However I would gladly ski with any poster here that gives thought and content to technical discussions. (I'm not going to buy a plane ticket for anyone here, but that's different) All good instructors have faults. If Mikela wanted to critique me and was a jerk about it, I'd listen to the advice on the hill and avoid her at the bar. I'm not going to marry her, I want her critique, advice and ideas. I think if you can't find more than 2 people to listen to and ski with potentially on this forum, you've set your standards way too high. We're human. Adjust accordingly.