ski clips to discuss...

[Crank]

I sometimes lurk on the instructors threads and look on in a state of confused bemusement as they parse, praise, pick apart, nick pit, argue about minutia of things that matter not a wit to me.

I don't think it hurts pro skiers who have produced and posted videos, nor their sponsors or whoever did the producing and publishing. Yes publishing, that's what putting something on youtube or any social media platform amounts to theses days. Back in the day when I was producing TV, when we would get strong reactions, both positive and negative, we took it as a sign that we had an engaged audience. This forum is as engaged and audience as it gets. Perhaps we could pose the question to some of the skiers who have had their skiing discussed to see how they feel about it?

 

[Steve]

Well I don't see train wrecks in the Ski School threads and I look pretty often. Granted some posts may have been deleted before I see them, but I think you guys are wrong, but so be it. It's your site, not ours - and if you're willing to risk it becoming more about equipment and travel than about technique, that's fine. It's happened a lot already, and will only get worse with the current approach.

 

[Tricia]

I think if you can't find more than 2 people to listen to and ski with potentially on this forum, you've set your standards way too high. We're human. Adjust accordingly.

Evidently I didn't say it well.
I do ski with more than 2 instructors from here in my travels, and because of personal interaction I'd take a lesson from many of them, but if I were to go based soley on participation here, I'm not sure I'd be inspired to hire more than a few.

 

[Steve]

Point taken - by me, and many other contributors here. Our postings, our tone and our participation here is clearly not up to your standards. Good luck finding others to replace us.

 

[Tricia]

I just watched a video in the last hour that I am burning to discuss, but I know it would be closed. Obviously this is how you stifle this forum and lose members. Time to step away from the computer for a bit.

Then work with us to set up guidelines so we can find a way to make it happen in a constructive way.

 

[Steve]

I think we're all fine with the way it's going now, pretty constructive.

So if you want changes, I think it's up to the site owners to set up guidelines.

The only thing even slightly over the line in either of those threads was @Noodler posting that the skier wasn't that great in his mind. Different style of skiing than his, it could have been said differently, but not exactly a train wreck. Again maybe something was deleted that I didn't' see, but I didn't see any problem posts in either thread.

 

[Philpug]

I think we're all fine with the way it's going now, pretty constructive.

Obviously "we" are not all fine. But, this part of "we" is willing to work on a solution.

 

[Steve]

By "we" I meant the posters in those threads. Haven't seen any anger or meanness.

 

[markojp]

After thinking it through a bit, I agree that discussion should be open. If everyone posted with the 'it's the skiing, just the skiing' tone and intent of Liquid Feet, there would be no problem. Her posts are inquisitive, non-judgmental, and as such, an excellent catalyst for thoughtful discussion. All in all, I can say that there are plenty of diamonds found in the rough here to make it worthwhile, but I do think the general tone can use some self-reflective attention.

First off, we need to work on objectivity. 'What is the skier's intent?' vs, 'well, I just don't like their skiing because they're not focused on what personally interests me'. The former is how we start MA discussions on the hill, particularly with people who are very proficient skiers. The latter IMHO, is the problem. Some basic guidelines for MA might be in order. I agree, for full time ski professionals promoting product, services, organizations, or themselves, I don't think we need their permission, and I'd guess much of what is written about their skiing might be viewed with humor by those skiers if they were to read along with us. Where MA is completely inappropriate in a public forum is using clips of recreational skiers in fun, stoke, or travel posts for fodder and all too often thoughts that devolve into ego driven ridicule.

Now why the reaction on the moderation front? We're living in an incredibly stressful moment in history. For most, including myself, skiing is about simple joy and re-creation... connecting with the hill, our friends, and continuing to pen our personal histories and journeys. I started teaching alpine 10 seasons ago as a way to pay forward after surviving a close call with cancer. I've had that 'this may be my last run' moment, and as such, take NO time on the hill for granted. When reading instruction threads that go off the rails or smack of ego driven 'analysis', I tune out and walk away. Through the lense of truly life changing challenges, I have a pretty short fuse for things that really don't matter. On occasion, I voice frustration. We're all in a similar spot in that we don't know what this season will bring, whether or not we'll see distant loved ones any time soon, have a job or not, and for some less fortunate on the health front, whether they'll see a full, beautiful, winter.

Guideline?

Sure.

What are the skis doing on the snow?
What does the skier do effectively? What would we like to see change, then 'why', and finally 'how'.

Trouble seems to come in the 'what' and the 'why' as skiing is often viewed within the confines of narrow personal interests and immediate goals, a la if they don't ski like X, or release like Y, then they aren't any good, which quickly gets voiced (intentionally or not) as 'I can't believe anyone thinks this is good skiing and I'm going to tell everyone why I'm right'. Anyhow, I do hope the powers that be allow the instruction forum to continue and that we all work to address and improve the tone and tenor of the discussions here.

 

[Tricia]

By "we" I meant the posters in those threads. Haven't seen any anger or meanness.

Keep in mind that we do have a team of moderators you may not see things that were flagged and fixed.

You are on to something in one of your previous posts.
One of the general forum guidelines we have is;
If someone starts a post with "this may be deleted but.." or "The mods may have to edit this but..." or "Don't bother resonding to me because ..."
Any post that includes those comments doesn't merit hitting the submit post button.

 

[Philpug]

By "we" I meant the posters in those threads.

Please remember what Tricia said...How something is meant verses how it is perceived.

 

[Steve]

sigh. So much for open conversation, with of course basic rules of decency, which I believe are already in the site rules.

Now we can have a post deleted, or a thread closed because we don't sufficiently consider all the ways what we say can be interpreted.

 

[Philpug]

sigh. So much for open conversation, with of course basic rules of decency, which I believe are already in the site rules.

Now we can have a post deleted, or a thread closed because we don't sufficiently consider all the ways what we say can be interpreted.

It is an open conversation. The door is swinging both ways.

 

[Noodler]

I think we're all fine with the way it's going now, pretty constructive.

So if you want changes, I think it's up to the site owners to set up guidelines.

The only thing even slightly over the line in either of those threads was @Noodler posting that the skier wasn't that great in his mind. Different style of skiing than his, it could have been said differently, but not exactly a train wreck. Again maybe something was deleted that I didn't' see, but I didn't see any problem posts in either thread.

And note that I did apologize for my "tone" of that post to the participants of that thread in a PM to them.

 

[Noodler]

Here are some discussion points to start to develop a set of guidelines/rules:

1. What videos can be considered "fair game" for critique?
2. What videos should be explicitly prohibited from MA?
3. What kind of commentary/criticism will be permitted? prohibited?

I have more to provide on this (and more things to discuss), but thought we should start with this short list first.

 

[Steve]

I do want to say thank you to Phil and Tricia for allowing this discussion.

I have to admit that one of my posts fit what you said,
"If someone starts a post with "this may be deleted but..""

and yet you didn't delete it. Thank you.

 

[Philpug]

And note that I did apologize for my "tone" of that post to the participants of that thread in a PM to them.

I always circle back to this... When replying in a thread, you are not only replying to the person in the tread but also the thousands of eyes reading it. Those other people took your post/tone as face value, they didn't know that you apologized. You came in as a seagull, you crapped in the thread and left, that is also a significant part of the problem in this discussion.

 

[Noodler]

I always circle back to this... When replying in a thread, you are not only replying to the person in the tread but also the thousands of eyes reading it. Those other people took your post/tone as face value, they didn't know that you apologized. You came in as a seagull, you crapped in the thread and left, that is also a significant part of the problem in this discussion.

I hear what you're saying, but at the same time I would hope that you would give the actual members of the forum higher regard than the passerby types who do not participate. If it weren't for those of us who post interesting and important skiing information there would be no traffic on the site. Please keep the perspective, we provide a lot of content with no direct reimbursement for our efforts...

 

[Philpug]

I hear what you're saying, but at the same time I would hope that you would give the actual members of the forum higher regard than the passerby types who do not participate. If it weren't for those of us who post interesting and important skiing information there would be no traffic on the site. Please keep the perspective, we provide a lot of content with no direct reimbursement for our efforts...

When you add a "but", that completely discredits what you said prior. I cannot tell you how many people have come to me in stores, on the slopes at trade shows and said " I love the site and what you do" My initial reply is "Who are you on the site?" It is very common to hear "Oh, I don't post, I just read..." When content is not productive....it is not good, this is not Epic where train wrecks were encourage.

 

[WadeHoliday]

Sorry if I dropped a bomb shell on this forum, apparently I touched a nerve that wasn't just on my mind.

There are so many great follow ups and thoughtful posts here, that I am reminded of why I have enjoyed ski technique forums in the past.
In that first thread that was shut down,(Mike King's start, sorry Mike, I thought it was Liquid Feet in my original post)
I saw some great thoughts, but I also saw red flags that may have been part of why it was closed. Some of the most inflammatory/divisive discussions from epic had to to do with Movement differences between what at the time was a new splinter group/certification process vs "traditional ski school" and Noodlers comment as well as the focus on transition hinted at that "divide".

There is just something about skiing (and humanity), that we have to pick what we think is good and bash the other side. Anyone remember the dogger/racer divisions of the early 90s.. We all played the same game, but one side wore the wrong clothes, turned their skis the wrong way and obviously were't having as much fun! .

I remember in college when I skied with a buddy/co worker at a ski shop who had been level3 cert and he was the first person who showed me the key movement patterns and blends that created those styles and where one blend was more effective than another, and he could ski well with both. It was the moment I decided I wanted to get better and get my level 3 cert.

I think part of the "guidelines" may have something to do with that. Recognizing that there are many ways to enjoy skiing, looking at efficiencies, techniques, intents is fun and can be worthwhile as well.

Of the sports I think I'm pretty good at (or at least rose to the highest level my talent would allow), skiing, mt biking, tennis.
Skiing can be the most fun, but is the most prone to "judgment" calls of what is good. Tennis is more objective, you are effective or not, and it shows in the results (win/lose), mt biking is also pretty objective as well, skiing without racing is often very subjective, and stylistic, so these judgements come out. But it's so much fun to play with the feelings that different movements create!

I'm sure the skitalk powers that be will come up with a well balanced, engaging and enjoyable solution!
Cheers!
Wade