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Snowboarding's design flaws

WynnDuffy

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Design flaw #1: Heelside chatter

Your ability to keep your heelside edge in contact with the snow runs through your dorsal flexors - the muscles that raise your toes up. These are very weak muscles in comparison to the big muscles in your thigh. The outcome is a poor ability to maintain edge contact with the snow and hence chatter. What ultimately brought me back to skiing was that my cheap 10 year old pair of ski swap skis that I bought to teach my family gave me way better edge hold than my top of the line snowboard.

Design flaw #2: Board width

It's taken me a long time to wrap my head around mid fat skis - the tradeoffs for edge hold and turn quickness are smaller than I would have guessed. But there is no getting around the fact that a 65mm carving ski is quicker to turn and has better edge hold than a 95 mm ski. And while 115 mm powder skis are quite remarkable on groomed surfaces, they are slower to turn and have weaker edges still. But snowboards are 250mm underfoot. The edge hold and turn speed is weaker still.

Design flaw #3: Sideways Stance and Knee Direction

I'm sure you've all heard the adage that sideways is the natural way to slide: "if you want to slid on a patch of ice what do you do? Turn sideways." But when people slide on ice they are actually decelerating. Guess who turns sideways to decelerate? Skiers. The sideways position is a strong well-balanced and well-braced position and you want to use it when turning and stopping, not when going straight. Setting aside the cute talking points, the sideways stance raises big problems.

When a snowboarder is turning, the direction of their travel is down the length of the board, but the direction their knees bend is towards the side of their board. They are perpendicular to each other. This "knee travel direction" vs. "board travel direction" point can't be emphasized strongly enough. Take a snowboarder riding down a trail. He's holding a 17 degree heelside edge but the trail has a series of ridges. He can lift his knees up but now he has to (A) maintain consistent pressure through his dorsal flexors on his heelside edge even as his knees raise, (2) maintain the 17 degree angle even as his knees raise and get out "in front" of his body. That is very hard to do and if you've got a lot of experience snowboarding and watch good snowboards the answer is that even good riders don't really try to do this. When a snowboarder is holding an edge, absorption is something that is only done through a small range of knee bend. By contrast, a skier can easily hold the same level of edge articulation even as their knees bend quite a lot.

This is why snowboarders struggle in moguls, this is why snowboarders struggle in choppy crud after a wet powder day. This is why snowboarders do do pretty well on corduroy and untracked powder - smooth surfaces.

Design flaw #4: Sideways Stance Width

The second concrete problem is that snowboards are locked into a shoulder width stance. Mogul skiers keep their feet together because they otherwise one foot will be on the downslope of one mogul and the upslope of the next, and this will keep them out of sync. How do you absorb with one leg while extending with the other? You can't. When snowboarders are going through "whoops" (is there an actual ski term for the repeated ridges in snow?) they can use an independently move their legs and seesaw their board (provided they don't have to hold an edge, see the earlier point), but when things get choppy they are forced into the equivalent of feet apart skiing.

Another problem is that the wide stance slows down turn speed. I've seen riders on rockered boards pivoting like you would not believe, so athleticism can at least partially overcome this, but an equally athletic skier is going to pivot faster in a narrow feet-together stance. That is important in the bumps or the trees.

Design flaw #5: Boots

It is very difficult to land a jump in hard boots. They are very responsive and can cause you to catch an edge, and point #3 about knee travel direction also applies. It's very hard to land a jump in hardboots with having some impact on your edging and that makes it easy to fall. Soft boots let you flex at the ankle and stay on top of your board without having much of an impact on how much you're digging in your edges. But now you have to decide - do you want substandard support and energy transference from your leg to to the board (by pushing through soft boots) or good support and energy transference by wearing hard boots but largely giving up on jumping as well as bumpy variable terrain?

The end result of this confirms what we already know - snowboarders are pretty good in powder and on soft cordury. But their edges don't have the power to really grip ice, and they struggle in bumpy or choppy conditions because they can't really absorb well.
 

mdf

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Your analysis makes a lot of sense @WynnDuffy .
What do snowboard racers do? They use hard boots, turn their mounts so they are facing more forward, and use narrower boards -- all of which reduce the problems you have noticed.
 

fatbob

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Well thought through. I'm with you on 1& 2 and probably 4, 5 is swings and roundabouts.

3 is interesting because I don't see the sideways stance as a disadvantage - it's the thing that permits a more intuitive "flow".

I don't think good snowboarders struggle in moguls that much and certainly for certain types of mogul like soft and moderately well spaced a competent boarder can snake a very decent line. The limitation is really board width and contact points which makes deeper troughs and steeper faces more difficult to deal with.

The stance problems I find are more practical - it's quite freaky how much shoulder checking you end up doing when you haven't been on a board in a while

The great advantage snowboarding gives you which is transferable to skis is a certain amount of relaxation when dealing with poor grip - you learn to ride out icy patches and scan for grip to make turns.

Re 1 &2 the last time I went out on a board (which would be end of 2019 season) I swore off my rockered board for life because it was frankly terrifying on wind polished ice rills on the heelside (Like when the groomer cord is preserved all day). It would just grab a rill and then I'd be a passenger and unable to exert enough steering force to keep it turning.

Would I want to swear off boarding for life? No way. I just need to get my snowtime and travel situation better for having the kit with me to take the odd day and get my skills back up. If you travel to ski it's far easier to take ski kit that will work even when it is poor/firm than a board where you are wanting soft. If you are backpack type travelling that reverses because a board is far easier to travel with on/off trains and buses etc.
 
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Tahoma

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So Wynn, do your points on design differences/flaws play in at all to what I've heard more than once: Snowboarding is easier/faster to get semi-proficient at, but harder to get really great at, whereas skiing has a longer/more gradual learning curve?

All I know is having seen enough wrist/arm injuries in boarders, I'll stick with my two skinnier boards, and try not to get my knees pranged.
 

fatbob

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The other positive is that snowboarding is way more versatile in tight spots like trees. The spin on the spot and the pivot on a tail "wheelie" are great for maintaining a line, just a shame all that is neutralised when you have a short uphill traverse out.
 

gwasson

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Some folks might find this interesting. Ryan Knapton doesn't seem to have much heelside chatter. Bonus is Tom Gellie does some commentary on his riding in this video.

 
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WynnDuffy

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Some folks might find this interesting. Ryan Knapton doesn't seem to have much heelside chatter. Bonus is Tom Gellie does some commentary on his riding in this video.


That is also (A) on hero snow, and (B) a video where they aren't going to include segments where people make mistakes except maybe in bloopers at the end, and then you want the spectacular crashes, not someone who chatters a bit on the heelside. But it is definitely a problem for snowboarders, and it's part of the reason why snowboard racers don't ice their courses. (Remember the first Olympics with snowboarding? The snowboard racing was a total shitshow with crashes left and right because the FIS assumed snowboarders wanted a nicely iced coarse just like ski racers).

At a purely recreational level, I prefer carving on a mildly icy day compared to fresh corduroy because corduroy is too slow and soft and I often get bogged down in a trench and boot out or bury my ski tips.
 

Unpiste

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The great advantage snowboarding gives you which is transferable to skis is a certain amount of relaxation when dealing with poor grip - you learn to ride out icy patches and scan for grip to make turns.
I've never snowboarded, but I certainly do this on skis. Mostly I try to just hit slick spots in the middle of a turn, just as I'm getting ready to change edges, though, so I set the new edge right as I hit something nicer.
 
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Lauren

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MHO in red...

Design flaw #1: Heelside chatter

Your ability to keep your heelside edge in contact with the snow runs through your dorsal flexors - the muscles that raise your toes up. These are very weak muscles in comparison to the big muscles in your thigh. The outcome is a poor ability to maintain edge contact with the snow and hence chatter. What ultimately brought me back to skiing was that my cheap 10 year old pair of ski swap skis that I bought to teach my family gave me way better edge hold than my top of the line snowboard. Why are you using your dorsal flexors to reduce chatter on your heel side turns? Use the dorsal flexors (along with inclination/angulation) to get up on edge then use your "big muscles" to carve and hold your edge. This is the same as skiers using their ankles/feet to roll into the turn, but once you're there you use your "big muscles" to actually stay there through the turn.

Design flaw #2: Board width

It's taken me a long time to wrap my head around mid fat skis - the tradeoffs for edge hold and turn quickness are smaller than I would have guessed. But there is no getting around the fact that a 65mm carving ski is quicker to turn and has better edge hold than a 95 mm ski. And while 115 mm powder skis are quite remarkable on groomed surfaces, they are slower to turn and have weaker edges still. But snowboards are 250mm underfoot. The edge hold and turn speed is weaker still. As someone with little feet that enjoys a fairly large board for my size, I have never known what toe drag feels like. It can take some work to get some boards on edge. There's a legit trade off here (not flaw).

...but the float you can get on a snowboard is heavenly.


Design flaw #3: Sideways Stance and Knee Direction

I'm sure you've all heard the adage that sideways is the natural way to slide: "if you want to slid on a patch of ice what do you do? Turn sideways." But when people slide on ice they are actually decelerating. Guess who turns sideways to decelerate? Skiers. The sideways position is a strong well-balanced and well-braced position and you want to use it when turning and stopping, not when going straight. Setting aside the cute talking points, the sideways stance raises big problems.

When a snowboarder is turning, the direction of their travel is down the length of the board, but the direction their knees bend is towards the side of their board. They are perpendicular to each other. This "knee travel direction" vs. "board travel direction" point can't be emphasized strongly enough. Take a snowboarder riding down a trail. He's holding a 17 degree heelside edge but the trail has a series of ridges. He can lift his knees up but now he has to (A) maintain consistent pressure through his dorsal flexors on his heelside edge even as his knees raise, (2) maintain the 17 degree angle even as his knees raise and get out "in front" of his body. That is very hard to do and if you've got a lot of experience snowboarding and watch good snowboards the answer is that even good riders don't really try to do this. When a snowboarder is holding an edge, absorption is something that is only done through a small range of knee bend. By contrast, a skier can easily hold the same level of edge articulation even as their knees bend quite a lot.

This is why snowboarders struggle in moguls, this is why snowboarders struggle in choppy crud after a wet powder day. This is why snowboarders do do pretty well on corduroy and untracked powder - smooth surfaces. I'm not buying this one. I actually find it easier to absorb terrain on a snowboard than skis. I think this has to do with the softer boots, along with a wider stance. The wide stance and soft boots allow you to get LOW on a snowboard while remaining balanced.

Design flaw #4: Sideways Stance Width

The second concrete problem is that snowboards are locked into a shoulder width stance. Mogul skiers keep their feet together because they otherwise one foot will be on the downslope of one mogul and the upslope of the next, and this will keep them out of sync. How do you absorb with one leg while extending with the other? You can't. When snowboarders are going through "whoops" (is there an actual ski term for the repeated ridges in snow?) they can use an independently move their legs and seesaw their board (provided they don't have to hold an edge, see the earlier point), but when things get choppy they are forced into the equivalent of feet apart skiing.

Another problem is that the wide stance slows down turn speed. I've seen riders on rockered boards pivoting like you would not believe, so athleticism can at least partially overcome this, but an equally athletic skier is going to pivot faster in a narrow feet-together stance. That is important in the bumps or the trees. I think the shorter length of boards negates any "flaw" here and is a huge bonus for snowboarding in tight spots. The short board takes less time to pivot, and get them around to a perpendicular position. Also the (generally) turned up tail is an advantage compared most skis. This is the same as twin tip skis are generally easier in tight trees and bumps...no square tails catching on trees, stumps, snow, etc.

Design flaw #5: Boots

It is very difficult to land a jump in hard boots. They are very responsive and can cause you to catch an edge, and point #3 about knee travel direction also applies. It's very hard to land a jump in hardboots with having some impact on your edging and that makes it easy to fall. Soft boots let you flex at the ankle and stay on top of your board without having much of an impact on how much you're digging in your edges. But now you have to decide - do you want substandard support and energy transference from your leg to to the board (by pushing through soft boots) or good support and energy transference by wearing hard boots but largely giving up on jumping as well as bumpy variable terrain? You're wearing the wrong boots, or in wrong bindings, if this is your opinion. There are boots that give you the support you need to hold a carved a turn and still provide plenty of flexibility to comfortably land a jump. Snowboard bindings play a large role in this energy transfer as well.

The end result of this confirms what we already know - snowboarders are pretty good in powder and on soft cordury. But their edges don't have the power to really grip ice, and they struggle in bumpy or choppy conditions because they can't really absorb well. Skis do have an advantage on ice over snowboards...you always have two edges on the snow, and there's generally a longer effective edge. I can't disagree with you there.
 

DanoT

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Given the deep carved grooves that appear when snowboard racers in their hard boots show up for a race, I am happy that soft boots and wide boards became the norm. ogsmile
 

crgildart

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Given the deep carved grooves that appear when snowboard racers in their hard boots show up for a race, I am happy that soft boots and wide boards became the norm. ogsmile
Yep, all that weight and muscle pushing down one edge is going to leave a deeper rut than spread out across two edges.
 

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