Toppling and balance.

[Zirbl]

Huh? I think you missed the point. All turns are like that in that the skis move more than the center of mass.

You never fall to the inside of the turn, or have your hips move to the inside of the turn. It is the skis reaching out, not the hips moving or falling in.

If it's only working for you on one side, what makes you so sure about it?

 

[François Pugh]

Thanks for the video... but I don't think you're getting my point and the contradiction with the merry-go-round video...

To topple something (other than dictators and such) you need a firm base and a lever. Think toppling the fridge. You can't topple something if you simply let it drop... although the literal meaning for "topple" is "cause to become unsteady and fall." so even a cat pushing the vase would qualify as a topple, I guess...

Flexing to release removes any base/connection/lever between the body and the ground and simply lets it move forward. I don't think of that as toppling, in my normal understanding of the word. If one just lets the legs go limp and falls vertically, I don't see that as topple. If one is pushed and toppled like a statue, then that fits.

Like i said, also puts the focus on the upper body, as if that's the first thing to move into the new turn. Which is a bad idea

Words are hard!
You still have a base to topple over. The skis are still carving around the turn. You have only temporarily disconnected from the skis; that's the letting go part, but it's only a partial disconnect. You are still tipping the skis so that they keep reaching further around the old turn; you just are no longer pushing yourself around that turn with your old outside leg. The skis still have enough of you, your lower legs, on them to keep them carving. As you topple over your partially connected base of support, you untip from the old edge angles and tip into the new turn.

 

[JESinstr]

Words are hard!
You still have a base to topple over. The skis are still carving around the turn. You have only temporarily disconnected from the skis; that's the letting go part, but it's only a partial disconnect. You are still tipping the skis so that they keep reaching further around the old turn; you just are no longer pushing yourself around that turn with your old outside leg. The skis still have enough of you, your lower legs, on them to keep them carving. As you topple over your partially connected base of support, you untip from the old edge angles and tip into the new turn.

Words are indeed hard. That's why it is irresponsible to use words that have multiple meanings when trying to describe a specific action.

So, what it the goal we are trying to achieve? IMO, a dynamic highspeed carving turn uses skier inclination (to the surface) to get the ski on edge and begin the carving process bringing in flexion and angulation as the turn develops. Since flexion is required for release and transition, the legs need to be lengthened out the other side and preferably uphill. In the meantime, the upper mass is moving in the direction at the time of release. The upper mass going where it is going so it is
incumbent upon the skier to align the feet with the upper mass to achieve a centered BOS. That's where the skill comes in.

I can see why some may call this toppling but to me, toppling a static concept.

 

[James]

You never fall to the inside of the turn, or have your hips move to the inside of the turn. It is the skis reaching out, not the hips moving or falling in.

Plenty of examples here of moving downhil and in or crossover. Take the exercise at 2:04 that leads to full turns, for example.

 

[LiquidFeet]

YOU SHORTEN YOUR INSIDE LEG BY CARVING THE SKI AWAY FROM (MORE THAN) YOUR OUTSIDE SKI WHICH THEN PUSHES YOUR LEG INTO A SHORTER POSITION WITH MORE INSIDE SKI LEAD! This then cranks up your OUTSIDE SKI EDGE ANGLE. This is how the inside ski is the "control" for your outside edge angle.

Thank you for this. I find it quite interesting, and I am eager to go out and see if I can feel that inside ski engage and turn a radically shorter radius than the outside ski (I think this is what you are saying), then feel its trajectory push the inside knee upward towards my armpit/chest, and recognize that this movement is increasing the edge angle of the outside ski, all without messing up the turn.

Yes, words are hard and some of the wordings you've offered don't make sense to me, but I think I get the general point and it does make sense.

When carving I hold that inside ski back to increase the pressure of its tip on the snow while keeping the tail engaged. You haven't said anything about this. Thoughts?

 

[Rod9301]

That ski is lightly loaded. It is not doing a lot of work. It is going to quite reliably track a bit tighter arc along the snow than your outside ski. It is ever so subtly going to "ski away" from your outside ski - towards the INSIDE....not the outside as you assumed.


So what do you do if you have 100 percent of the weight on the outside ski, like on ice?

How do you tighten the turn, since the inside ski is off the snow?

 

[BTWilliams]

That ski is lightly loaded. It is not doing a lot of work. It is going to quite reliably track a bit tighter arc along the snow than your outside ski. It is ever so subtly going to "ski away" from your outside ski - towards the INSIDE....not the outside as you assumed.


So what do you do if you have 100 percent of the weight on the outside ski, like on ice?

How do you tighten the turn, since the inside ski is off the snow?

Early in the turn? If your inside ski is off the snow you have really big problems. FIS skiers are always focusing on maintaining pressure on the front and inside edge of their inside ski early in the turn for a reason.

 

[BTWilliams]

Thank you for this. I find it quite interesting, and I am eager to go out and see if I can feel that inside ski take off, push that inside knee upward, and increase the edge angle of the outside ski, all without messing up the turn. Yes, words are hard and some of the wordings you've offered don't make sense to me, but I get the general point and it does make sense.

When carving I hold that inside ski back to increase the pressure of its tip on the snow while keeping the tail engaged. You haven't said anything about this. Thoughts?

I have a hard enough time inclining the inside ski enough as it is. The way I have been able to do this is using ankle dorsiflexion - pulling my foot towards my shin, which when the ski is on the snow, accomplishes the same thing...it is going to pull the ski back. But perhaps I should try your method and think about just pulling the ski back in general - add some hamstring to the shin muscles. I have had a very hard time activating that extra inward tipping of the inside ski. This is due to my background and how I was coached in the 80s I think. My left ski is currently a lost cause, so my right turns are not nearly as good. I will try your method and just think about pulling the ski back. To me, it seems that what ever you can do to get the inside ski tipping/inclining more will accomplish the task, and that task is pulling/carving the inside ski in more to widen your stance, therefore leaning your body more, and creating higher edge angles on the outside ski while maintaining equally high edge angles on the inside ski. The underlying key is not simply shortening the leg directly....that will cause you to A-frame and lose the outside edge. Rather, you use the inside ski edge to do the work of shortening your inside leg.

 

[BTWilliams]

If it's only working for you on one side, what makes you so sure about it?

Because it works and it all makes sense now, and it becomes so easy to crank turns. My right hip is an inch off the snow on right turns now, and I can drag a right hand with ease. I have never be able to consistently do that. I have done it here and there, but not consistently with such ease....So that is why I am sure about it. When you get something right, it becomes easier.

Also, I have the same left ski as inside ski problem doing some simple drills like Garlands. When I do Garlands with my left leg on the inside/uphill, they look fine at higher speed and with more aggressive turns, but when I slow down so the loads are more subtle, it all falls apart. I have a terrible time controlling my inside ski, and maintaining balance when I initiate the turn. Sometimes the skis over edge, and com under me and I have to go flat. Other times I do not edge enough, and start falling over. It is just completely un coordinated, and does not seem to get better. I have the exact uncoordinated feel when trying to activate and use my inside ski early in a left turn while carving. Same thing when one ski skiing. I have poor control of my left ski when using the off edge.

 

[James]

Sounds like canting the left boot would help^

 

[geepers]

but I don't think you're getting my point and the contradiction with the merry-go-round video...

Kind of difficult to summarise a 90 minute vid (plus several others) with one word.

There's a summary of War and Peace that goes "A Russian called Pierre tries to shoot Napoleon but doesn't." Guess it's right enough but something sorta gets lost...

To topple something (other than dictators and such) you need a firm base and a lever.

Ummm.... not really.

A lever? I think you mean a force - a fridge could be toppled by a hurricane or by a big enough object hitting it.

Or a truck going around a corner may not not need anything more than the forces involved in the turn itself to topple...


We don't even need a firm base of support. Removing/changing the current base of support will cause a topple. Counter-steering a motorcycle we change the base of support and the forces already there do the work of tipping the thing over.

And so we segue to a skier.... there are various ways of adjusting the forces acting on our CoM and adjustable base of support to get us out of one turn and into the next:

• Tightening the radius
• Offsetting the BoS
• Pressing on the inside leg
• Pulling up/flexing the outside leg
• Letting go body segments
• Increasing angulation
• Net forces change
• Gravity hinders then helps

(Yeah, I know... really should get out more...)

Flexing to release removes any base/connection/lever between the body and the ground and simply lets it move forward. I don't think of that as toppling, in my normal understanding of the word. If one just lets the legs go limp and falls vertically, I don't see that as topple. If one is pushed and toppled like a statue, then that fits.

There's difference in perception largely due to different objectives in the skiing. Upper body stays (mostly) vertical and edge angle is developed almost totally through angulation vs edge angle developed through a combination of inclination and only enough angulation as needed for grip and lateral stability. I can see how in the former there's far less perception of toppling than in the latter. In the latter that projection of the body on a different trajectory to the feet feels like toppling - even though, as @JESinstr has pointed, out the feet are doing a goodly amount of the moving.

Like i said, also puts the focus on the upper body, as if that's the first thing to move into the new turn.

When you have your hip on the snow in a turn what's the 1st part of you to begin to move back to the outside?

 

[razie]

Both of the examples you gave make my point. Both the truck and the fridge topple (i.e. rotate over an anchor point provided by a firm base) - bottom of fridge, wheels.

As opposed to simply removing the base, bottom, or wheels and letting it fall in the direction of the thing (flex release). You surely understand that countersteering is predicated on having a well-engaged base of support which you steer away to topple over...?

I think it's now clear though how engrained our collective understanding of toppling is? The rotation over an anchor point is reflected in everything you've contributed thus far... even when you were certain that you were proving the opposite...

Anyways - the weeds are growing bigger and bigger, hard to even see what's being said, I guess.

edge angle is developed almost totally through angulation vs edge angle developed through a combination of inclination and only enough angulation

well, that's your problem right there. Woof, big problem at that. That's bad skiing... all upper body and engaged base throughout (one doesn't angulate like in the air). Just what I was afraid of and arguing that toppling thoughts may inflict...

q.e.d.

y'all, don't let my thoughts stop anyone... topple away if it works for ya... it's not an inherently bad thing at certain points in a skier's development.

 

[BTWilliams]

Sounds like canting the left boot would help^

No...it is me not the equipment. I have not developed dynamic balance...the ability to adjust edge angle so balance turning forces, using my left ski as an inside ski. I grew up skiing and racing in the 80s. It was all DH ski...DH ski...DH ski from coaches. I am right handed...right leg dominant. So when making left turns, my right leg was in charge, and I developed great feel and control with that ski...but not my left ski. My left ski was along for the ride. So now I have very poor ability to use the outside edge of my left ski. But when making RIGHT turns, my right ski is my inside ski, and I have better feel and control of that leg...so weirdly my right turns with my weak leg as my DH leg are now BETTER TURNS. The good news is that can all be overcome with simple drills and practice.

Check out WORLD CUP SKI RACERS FREE SKIING 15 (the best of 1-14) (posted by Flip Chwistek)
5:05-5:07
5:11-5:12
5:17-5:19
5:25-5:27

You can see the inside ski carves away (tighter arc) from the loaded outside ski, and at the same time the turn tightens even more.

Ted Ligety GS Slow Motion (posted by Yura Z)
0:58-1:01
1:07-1:08
1:11-1:14
1:17-1:19
1:21-1:23
Etc..etc.

Same thing....

On a different topic...check out Ted's low transition at 1:06-1:08 / and again in slow mo at 1:09-1:10! This just shows that if you constantly try to "never let yourself get back", you can not go really fast. The lower the transition, the faster and the smoother. But to go really low, you MUST get way back, and then recover your position.

 

[geepers]

The rotation over an anchor point

Hands on the ground, skis still well engaged.

Seven frames later, hand has moved away from the snow, body is coming out of the old turn, skis still engaged.
At some point in, say, the bottom 3rd of that turn he has biased in favor of the inertial forces and his CoM is pivoting laterally out of the turn around the old inside edges.

5 frames later, in a flexed position, low to zero ski engagement, he's in float and there's probably little he can do to avoid the different trajectories his torso and feet are no (even if he wanted to which presumably he doesn't).

4 frames later, torso and feet have proceeded on their respective trajectories. As a consequence his outside leg is getting longer and the new outside ski is beginning to engage with the snow (but still low pressure at this point).

7 frames later, torso has inclined further, outside ski is engaged and pressure is building although they have not yet begun to turn much. Did he pivot laterally around his new inside edge (topple) or did his torso just carry on where he projected it whilst his feet went wide?

7 frames later the skis are catching him and about to redirect his whole body back across the hill so they are strongly engaged. His upper body has inclined a little more. Just a guess but likely gravity was assisting that lateral movement - it sure wasn't working against it.

12 frames later - just so we're back to roughly where we started....

(Disclaimer: I've no idea if JDS thinks in terms of toppling. Was just a handy video.)

engaged base throughout

Ah...no. 3rd image - float.

all upper body

Insert endless examples of WC athletes with large amounts of upper body tilt.

The issue with your statement is the use of the word "all". Skiers get edge angle with a combination of inclination and angulation depending on desired outcome. World away from intermediate upper body tippers.

 

[James]

@razie you’re getting a little in the weeds protesting the truck toppling versus flex to release. In your flex to release, the ski is anchored in the snow in its arc.
Analogies aren’t exact.

There’s also vaulting.

 

[BTWilliams]

Plenty of examples here of moving downhil and in or crossover. Take the exercise at 2:04 that leads to full turns, for example.

In my opinion, No No and No. In none of those cases are the "hips moving in". They are simply moving out less than the legs are. You hips are a rough approximation of your center of mass. As humans, we tend to be "me"-centric. You are thinking about your body in terms of your own reference point. Me. Wrong. You are moving through space. Your hips NEVER fall in. They move out less then your legs. In a frame of reference that is centered on you, they seem to be falling in...but that is the wrong frame of reference. You are moving through space. The frame of reference is space... the mountain...earth.

 

[James]

You are thinking about your body in terms of your own reference point. Me. Wrong. You are moving through space. Your hips NEVER fall in. They move out less then your legs. In a frame of reference that is centered on you, they seem to be falling in...but that is the wrong frame of reference. You are moving through space. The frame of reference is space... the mountain...earth.

Gggg….geeeee…ppeerrrs! Help!…
Just spinning in the galaxy here.

They’re not leaning in, their hips just move out less than the wheels?

 

[BTWilliams]

What does that have to do with skiing? Last I checked, when we ski, we do not have two gyroscopes spinning at 2000+ RPM attached to our junk. But in reality, even with this example you STILL do not simply "lean in". Sorry but that does not work. When you turn a motorcycle, you actually DO have to move the motorcycle the WRONG way to to start a turn. If you are going to make a right turn, you actually very subtly turn the bars left first (push with the right hand), causing the tires to move away from the center of mass, and THEN the bike can lean in. So even this case has more in common with "reaching out" with your skis than I think you intended. As a MX rider, I use this to enter ruts. I will actually set my line to aim about a foot inside the start of a rut...then as I get closer I turn the wrong way and the tires "reach out" into the rut entry. I do not even think about how I do it. This gives you a really aggressive entry which works with a rut that can support as much load as your skills will allow you to generate. Any experienced street or off road rider starts a turn this way without even thinking. It is very subtle. Try some time to turn left by turning the bars left solidly. LOL. You will end up turning RIGHT.

 

[TheArchitect]

I can rarely contribute much to the actual content of these Ski School threads but I do find them endlessly entertaining.

 

[geepers]

#1 There is no simple way to explain or understand something very complex.
#2 If something is not making sense to you and the way you ski, it may be because you are fundamentally not at the level to learn the lesson you are trying to learn. I will comment more on this at the end. I am going to assume you ARE ready to learn the skills you are trying to learn.
#3 Stop thinking about the hips moving into the inside of the turn, falling into the turn, etc. It does not work that way. Start thinking about REACHING further out with your skis. This reach is initiated in the TRANSITION when edge pressure is light. In one of Deb Armstrong's videos she was talking to a US ski team athlete about edge angles, and he specifically mentioned "reaching" further and further out and just having supreme confident the skis would hold. Watch World Cup skiers in Slalom. Specifically look at the gates set on FLAT parts of a course, if there are any. Those gates will not be as far across the fall line. The center of mass of the skiers on those sorts of turns barely move side to side across the fall line at all. The skis are 30" out to the left...then 30" to the right, while the skiers hips are going straight down the hill. So exactly how on earth are their hips falling to the inside of the turn? They are NOT AT ALL. It is their skis that are moving, reaching, relative to the skiers center of mass. All high level race turns are like this. You want the center of mass to move AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE, which means the skis must move out as far as possible. So again, start thinking and feeling your legs reaching, and forget about this whole toppling idea. It is just plain nonsense.
#4 If you "reach" farther out, there are two possible outcomes. A - You will end up on your inside ski and lose the outside edge, possible falling. B - you will develop higher edge angles and rip turns like an FIS skier.
#5 For most, when we "reach" really far out the former is the result because we are lacking some very challenging advanced fundamentals. Two weeks ago I took a high speed fall because I was skiing sloppy, and on a pitch too steep for my current high edge angle carving skills. I got aggressive laying into a turn. I really reached out, and the skis never had a prayer of holding. My inside ski was flatter than my outside (A-framing too much early in the turn). A flatter inside ski takes weight off the outside ski while simultaneously adding no turning force. I slid about 100 yards at 30+ mph on my hip/side. It forced me to go back to work on some fundamentals, and realize my inside ski awareness with my left leg was a big problem. This soon led to a major breakthrough for me. More on that below.
#5 The most critical advanced fundamental is inside ski awareness, and the ability to adjust BOTH your ski angles dynamically AND independently at the same time. Your inside ski is not along for a ride. In fact, for high performance high edge angle turns, your inside ski is the control system in the early, most critical part of the turn.
#6 To develop inside ski awareness and control, do Garlands, One Ski Skiing (Watch Burke Mountain Academy One Ski Drill), and then make good carved turns on a very easy/mild slope FEELING your inside ski inclination. You MUST develop the feel of dorsiflexing your inside ankle joint while driving your inside (leading) knee towards the inside of the turn (not up or forward!) to increase your inside ski edge angle. You should spend a lot of time on very easy slopes without too much pitch, just cranking turns. Build up a lot of speed, and then burn off speed as you crank high edge angle turns. You should be able to drag your inside hand without going out of position. It does not work the other way. If you can not do FIS level turns on a very flat slope, there is ZERO chance of doing them on a steeper slope. You develop the skills on easy slopes, they build the pitch while holding that form/feeling/skill set.
#7 The other advanced fundamental is the low transition. I see very very few skiers out on the hill actually do a low transition. Watch Triggerboy62's "How to CARVE LOW" to understand this better. It is one of the best explanations of the importance of the low transitions that I have found. I was at Mammoth recently, and watched some of the Jr. FIS program skiers free-skiing. Even many of them were getting lazy and not doing a consistent low transition. This is probably because it is exhausting to ski that way all the time. But this is absolutely a mandatory skill. When you are cranking a high edge angle turn, your DH/loaded leg is barely bent. Call this stacked, call it strong, whatever. It has to be in that strong position because if you bend it any more, it will collapse under the massive load. So your loaded leg is actually quite TALL in the turn, but it is inclined perpendicular for your ski bases. Skiers who rip high edge angle turns are not short....they are TALL....but they are so inclined that they LOOK low. So..... what needs to happen in transition? If you maintain this strong and tall leg position, all that energy will go into "pop" and your center of mass will bet pushed up way too much. You will push your body up. This is the old way of skiing. This un-weights everything, most importantly your skis, and makes your transition SLOW SLOW SLOW. So what you have to learn is to get SHORTER in transition. It is almost the opposite of what us older skiers learned in the 80s. In transition, your should look like you are sitting in a chair...both legs bent about 90 degrees. This is physically very hard, and technically very hard as you are in a bad position that you must very quickly recover from. But when you start to do the low transition you will be shocked at two things. #1 how quick you can go from edge to edge and #2 how it facilitates reaching further out with the skis. The whole problem with "patience" and having to wait for the skiis to initiate a carve pretty much goes out the window when you learn a low transition. You will immediately start developing edging forces. This is a big part of what makes developing early high edge angles possible.

Putting it all together, if you do not do a low transition, you really can not "reach out" to quickly create high edge angles. And if you do not have good inside ski awareness and control, creating a early high edge angle will likely just lead to a bigger crash. So, in the name of safety, learn inside ski awareness. Then learn the low transition. Then you can start to REACH more.

Now, lets take it a further level. Just recently, I learned something that I should have understood months ago. But why didn't I? I was not ready to learn the lesson. Specifically, I thought I understood how important the inside ski was. The reality was, I did not have a clue. It was not until I learned the low transition, and started really working hard on inside ski awareness that I discovered how the inside ski actually controls the outside ski edge angle. You hear lots of coaches talk about shortening the inside leg, and driving the inside knee so as to create high edge angles. But this is very misleading. I have not heard A SINGLE coach actually tell you HOW to shorten your inside leg. You are left to think that you just pull it up using your hip flexors, and then your body will just "fall" into higher edge angles. It does not work that way at all. It was not till I started developing the ability to adjust both edge angles at the same time that I had an "ah ha" moment. I have terrible inside ski feel on my left turns (I am right leg dominant) but pretty good inside ski feel on my right turns, where my inside ski is my right leg. I noticed that if I tried to incline my inside right ski (on a right turn) to a higher edge angle, then it did something strange. It basically "stretched" my inside leg/boot inside and forward and inclining my whole body AND the outside ski, while maintaining a stable balanced and highly loaded position. Total "ahha!" moment. The realization was that you do NOT "drive you knee" or "shorten your inside leg" using your leg muscles. YOU SHORTEN YOUR INSIDE LEG BY CARVING THE SKI AWAY FROM (MORE THAN) YOUR OUTSIDE SKI WHICH THEN PUSHES YOUR LEG INTO A SHORTER POSITION WITH MORE INSIDE SKI LEAD! This then cranks up your OUTSIDE SKI EDGE ANGLE. This is how the inside ski is the "control" for your outside edge angle. This is what I meant by "being ready to learn a lesson" I though I was ready to understand inside ski shortening, but I WAS NOT. My skiing was not at a level where I could understand the context of the technique. I did not have the dynamic edge control, motor control and feel to drive my inside ski to higher edge angles. I still don't with my left ski. And because I was not able to do that, my attempts to increase edge angles by shortening the inside leg just created more problems like that crash I described. I was not using the right technique to shorten my inside leg because I literally did not have the motor control to tip my ski in that way. Do slow Garlands and you will see what I mean. You may find, like me, that it is very hard to incline your non-dominant inside ski and maintain equilibrium dynamic balance. Either you fall into the hill, or the skis over edge and come under you.

So, if you are having hard time understanding certain concepts as they relate to your skiing, it may be because you are lacking some fundamentals and motor control skills that you do not even know you are lacking. This creates a tactile disconnect, and the results of some techniques may not be what you expect them to be. Pointers that people give you will not work, because you are not able to actually do the technique properly. You need to find that missing piece and fix it.

The inside ski does what...?