California/Nevada Understanding Tahoe Travel Restrictions

Unpiste

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This is why: The points that @migdriver said in post 55 because you are not just going from one house to another in your car. You are going to the hill and in the lift lines and on chairs that other people have used..these "tourists" that went to bars and parties. Also what happened to another member here, you could be Doing all the right things and still getting covid. As they say, "It's not a problem, until it's a problem".

I agree, which is why I haven't been to Tahoe since March. But I also don't think this kind of shaming is especially useful. Skiing was explicitly called out in multiple locations as an outdoors activity that's safe. If we have something specific to point to that says otherwise, that's good information, but speculating that people engaging in a "safe" activity may be spreading COVID just breeds resentment.

This might be a different story in another state, but the California government is actually trying to take COVID seriously. Second-guessing activities they're calling safe without specific information to point to doesn't seem helpful.

Along with hoping for the best, we also need to plan for the worst. Right now it is bad...and actually could get worse if the resorts do shut down. Part of that shut down could be from people traveling from different regions and when they do shut down..restarting will be all that more difficult.

My point was that the responsibility doesn't just fall on individuals. The policy @Tony pointed out is good, but frankly, I don't think it goes far enough. 28-day orders instituted every few weeks wouldn't be covered, for instance, and yet would still be a huge disruption to someone's use of their pass. Vail's judgement that one has gotten full value out of their pass after just 7 days skiing (the 7 day figure comes up in multiple locations in their policy) also seems rather optimistic on their part. Yes, these are the terms we agreed to, but again, the only other option was not to buy a pass and, realistically, to give up on even having the option to ski for the entire season.
 
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raytseng

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Just to comment om the epicpass insurance provision. Yea if your SIP order is lifted in 28days I don't think the provision will apply. Thats why they wrote it up so legally as its shipped off to an underwriting insurance company, and that company is going to follow the letter of the contract.

However, given the pushback, and delayed start from the other regions/counties, it is very likely they will extend past the jan6 and make it a moot point that it is a hypothetical 28day SIP. Like if san mateo/bay area region holds out and does start until dec21 and then 3weeks starts from then, I don't expect Alameda is going to lift earlier just because they chose to start earlier. So then san mateo is then in the boat with only 21days SIP, but again that might get extended too. No use worrying about it though if it is outside my individual control as I am not in charge.

It maybe problematic though if you want to claim using this provision, but on your record it shows you skied during that period and a potential for your claim to get denied.

Finally pass insurance is not a life changing event, so if better thought of as warranty rather than insurance. if the worst case is you lose the pass money or ski a lot less this sesson not the end of the world
 
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Alexzn

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This is why: The points that @migdriver said in post 55 because you are not just going from one house to another in your car. You are going to the hill and in the lift lines and on chairs that other people have used..these "tourists" that went to bars and parties. Also what happened to another member here, you could be Doing all the right things and still getting covid. As they say, "It's not a problem, until it's a problem".

@Philpug if you can point me to the research that shows that you can get COVID standing in a lift line outside wearing a mask (and when other people are wearing masks too), we can talk. Same goes to the issue of chairs. I have not seen reports of any chairs transmitting COVID, it is an airborne virus that is primarily and nearly exclusively transmitted by aerosol droplets. You are more likely to catch COVID at a tailgate party in a parking lot than in the lift line.
 
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raytseng

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I think this is all the meta issues playing out.
Like asking for the research on how providing safer sex education will or will not prevent teenage pregnancies vs only saying abstinence is the only 1 true way.

If you do a thought experiment and wrote the order a different way, think how would the entirety of CA population respond in behavior to a different order.

There is an whole area of behavior science on risk reduction/harm reduction idea, with issues such as providing free needles and spaces to do drugs or legalizing decriminalizing things like prostitution and even aspects of teen pregnancy/abortion. But its a fine line where you don't want to encourage the behavior but if people are doing it anyway or not going to listen, do it as safe as possible to overall reduce a metric or reduce harm
With a rush situation like this its hard to get that nuanced messaging and policy right to achieve the goals. Even with years to fine-tune a policy its hard to get the nuance right and end up with the reverse result.
 
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Finally pass insurance is not a life changing event, so if better thought of as warranty rather than insurance. if the worst case is you lose the pass money or ski a lot less this sesson not the end of the world

I agree, and I would also never pay for actual pass insurance unless I though I knew something about my situation that the underwriting company didn't.

But, first, if there's any lesson to be learned from the last several years, it's that downplaying and ignoring real concerns won't make them go away. And second, again, remember that the resorts are the ones with the power to make policy here. It's not an accident that the terms surrounding shutdowns are so hard to trigger.

I have not seen reports of any chairs transmitting COVID, it is an airborne virus that is primarily and nearly exclusively transmitted by aerosol droplets. You are more likely to catch COVID at a tailgate party in a parking lot than in the lift line.

There's no harm in a little caution, applied appropriately.
 

Pequenita

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It would be pretty useful to hear about restrictions specific to the Tahoe region. Discussion so far has mostly been about California in general and the Bay Area. (Of course, if you live in Tahoe and the slopes are open, there isn't much question about whether you're allowed to ski.)

To be honest, I don't think the Tahoe area counties will be imposing restrictions more strict than what the state is imposing. Their economies at this time of year are inextricably tied with skiing and tourism, which the local governments have an interest in making sure do not collapse. Resorts could make decisions to close independent of local directives, and I would think that this would arise if there were an outbreak among the people needed to keep the resort open.
 

SSSdave

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Good news ! Email response from Santa Clara County shows their directive does not relate where one travels from but rather furthest air miles extent from any part of county borders. The county northeast border is Mount Boardman in the Hamilton Range per red dot on my map below.

This link relates what they sent me in the FAQ response email relates 150 miles from the Santa Clara County borders:


This link on their FAQ page does not mention borders so beware:


In any case given limited current snow conditions and a near dry weather forecast, not much reason for any of us in the county to ski near term. BA is finally seeing some potential for storms to begin moving in so check that. Lets hope restrictions have their effect for the virus numbers to come down so they let the directive expire by New Years...be SAFE.


Accordingly, I created this map below showing 150 miles from two corners of the county. From the red dot corner, it includes all of Lake Tahoe plus Truckee and Carson City. From the blue dot corner it almost reaches southeast to Bakersfield and includes Mammoth, thus all Sierra Nevada ski resorts.


SCC-150miles.jpg
 
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textrovert

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Unpiste

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Looking at the COVID policies across the Tahoe region, it is really pretty surprising how permissive they are. Just about the only thing I could find encouraging people not to visit is this, from South Lake Tahoe:
We are also encouraging visitors who are considering vacationing in Tahoe to put those plans on hold for the foreseeable future.

It also still seems to be hard to find good information tailored for the area. The one exception I found is this North Lake Tahoe website: https://www.gotahoenorth.com/covid-19/, which actually covers both California and Nevada.

It seems like it would really be useful and wouldn't be all that hard for the region to get together and create some clear safety guides tailored for local activities, for those who do choose to visit. Certainly not everyone would see the information or pay attention, but that would at least be an official reference people could print or store on their phones and point to whenever questions come up.
 

John Webb

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And my bet is that most of the spread is evenly split between the locals and the real tourists (the ones who'd usually go to bars and party). . Staying in place and drinking with your buddies (because you have nothing better to do) spreads COVID..

Summit Co CO (Keystone, Breck, Copper,AB) did an investigation after a recent spike.. The county found more than half the Covid cases were from locals.
 

migdriver

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Some of the published/ website guidance re COVID restrictions around Tahoe are not necessarily current.

The other shoe has now dropped : the Tahoe area ( CA side) is will be under stay at home restrictions as of Friday . Technically skiing and resorts are allowed ,( though with no food or beverage etc) , but all non essential travel in the region is prohibited.

So all the discussions re travel to Tahoe resorts from the Bay Area, Sac, and so on are pretty much moot. The stay at home order is for three weeks min. And, hotels and lodging are supposed to accommodate COvID needs only and are theoretically not allowed to house tourists , visitors etc.

Now I guess we wait to see the response of Alterra and Vail corps. Relying on the Bay Area folks who have moved up here recently into ski rentals, newly purchased homes etc plus existing locals -all on passes - hardly would seem sufficient to justify ski operations at least in the short term .

Guess we’ll know shortly.
 

Pequenita

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The info in this database is bracing. It includes the number of inpatient beds at hospitals around the country. A run of the mill ski injury is outpatient. But a more traumatic injury is inpatient. From the Tahoe area, I think such patients are flown to either Renown in Reno or UC Davis in Sacramento. Less than 5% of their beds are available for inpatient care.

 
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raytseng

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Some of the published/ website guidance re COVID restrictions around Tahoe are not necessarily current.

The other shoe has now dropped : the Tahoe area ( CA side) is will be under stay at home restrictions as of Friday . Technically skiing and resorts are allowed ,( though with no food or beverage etc) , but all non essential travel in the region is prohibited.

So all the discussions re travel to Tahoe resorts from the Bay Area, Sac, and so on are pretty much moot. The stay at home order is for three weeks min. And, hotels and lodging are supposed to accommodate COvID needs only and are theoretically not allowed to house tourists , visitors etc.

Now I guess we wait to see the response of Alterra and Vail corps. Relying on the Bay Area folks who have moved up here recently into ski rentals, newly purchased homes etc plus existing locals -all on passes - hardly would seem sufficient to justify ski operations at least in the short term .

Guess we’ll know shortly.
I don't doubt you, but you got links to get more details? seems like breaking news!
 
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raytseng

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The info in this database is bracing. It includes the number of inpatient beds at hospitals around the country. A run of the mill ski injury is outpatient. But a more traumatic injury is inpatient. From the Tahoe area, I think such patients are flown to either Renown in Reno or UC Davis in Sacramento. Less than 5% of their beds are available for inpatient care.

Or driven in an ambulance to Renown if you are currently stable but need ICU monitoring in case you take a sudden turn for the worse. Renown has a neuro dept, aka brain surgeons, but tahoe forest isn't equipped for neuro issues. ask me how I know.
Head injury is a very common common serious life-threatening ski trauma over some part of your body being physically shattered, and is delayed reaction between when it turns from stable to life-threatening.
 
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Unpiste

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Some of the published/ website guidance re COVID restrictions around Tahoe are not necessarily current.

Indeed, and that's unfortunate.

The other shoe has now dropped : the Tahoe area ( CA side) is will be under stay at home restrictions as of Friday . Technically skiing and resorts are allowed ,( though with no food or beverage etc) , but all non essential travel in the region is prohibited.

So all the discussions re travel to Tahoe resorts from the Bay Area, Sac, and so on are pretty much moot. The stay at home order is for three weeks min. And, hotels and lodging are supposed to accommodate COvID needs only and are theoretically not allowed to house tourists , visitors etc.

I want to be clear that I'm not trying to argue that driving from the Bay Area to Tahoe is a good idea, but I still find the guidance extremely confusing. Is travel to a ski resort essential, or not, and if it isn't, why would ski resorts still be operating while this is in effect? I've read and re-read that California order, and I don't see any place where it actually makes a distinction on how far one has to drive before it's considered "travel".
 
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