eBike USFS Designates E-Bikes “Motorized Vehicles”

[tball]

E-bikes aren't analog, but they aren't dirt bikes, either, which is the interpretation that the e-bike crowd is complaining about.

Exactly! This ruling defines a new class of e-bikes (with three sub-classes) between analog bikes and motorcycles, and that allows them all to be managed separately.

The e-bike crowd wanted to be considered just regular old bikes. Analog bikers don't want to be all lumped together for trail access, so this was a win for the analog side.

Yes, you have the CT, but just ban e-bikes on that, easy peasy and it makes sense.

If the e-bikers had their way, it wouldn't be possible to ban e-bikes on the Colorado Trail as they currently are on many segments. They wanted the Forest Service to allow e-bikes anywhere analog bikes are permitted.

You can't ride the AT, can you? (with any bike)

True. The difference is mountain biking has long been in the charter of the Colorado Trail.

Anyway, like anything, competing interests need to isolate what it is they really think and be aware of biases. We/you/anyone shouldn't base their opinions on whether people are in shape enough or not. Sorry. That's gatekeeping dressed in concern for environment/safety/whatever. And yes, it's a tried and true political strategy. Of course, there ARE concerns about the environment/safety/whatever, so go that way and don't worry that some fat-ass is going to pass you on a hill.

It's not about if folks are in shape or not. It's about a new user type potentially degrading the experience for existing users. In some instances, the impact is minimal, and e-bikes should be allowed. In others, the impact may be deemed too great through a local process, and e-bikes not allowed.

There has to be some gatekeeping to maintain the backcountry experience. Too many people, and it's no longer a backcountry experience. Fitness and skills are the limiters that keep the backcountry experience what it is. If not for that, what keeps it from being overrun? Reservations?

Food for thought: instead of backcountry mountain biking, think of backcountry skiing. How will the existing backcountry skiers respond when there's a new electronic mode of uphill travel somewhere between analog skins and a snowmobile. Will the current backcountry skiers welcome the new e-skiers and gladly share the powder?

 

[Tricia]

It's not about if folks are in shape or not. It's about a new user type potentially degrading the experience for existing users.

Isn't that the argument for long lift lines, crowded neighborhoods, hiking trails??
Anywhere that new users are crowding the space of exisiting users?

We want our kids to put down the ipad or play station, and get outside to play but then we get upset that our outdoor activities are too crowded.... Damn kids!

 

[Philpug]

It's about a new user type potentially degrading the experience for existing users.

What about the existing rider that has migrated over to eMTBs? What about the new user that got their first analog mountain bike?

Since we are going on "potentially", lets ban 700Hp super cars because they potentially cold go too fast. Lets ban Mustangs, because they could potentially attend a Cars & Coffee because they could crash. How about alcohol, because people could potentially get drunk.

 

[SBrown]

Food for thought: instead of backcountry mountain biking, think of backcountry skiing. How will the existing backcountry skiers respond when there's a new electronic mode of uphill travel somewhere between analog skins and a snowmobile. Will the current backcountry skiers welcome the new e-skiers and gladly share the powder?

I know we discussed this before, but yeah, it's already happening. Things get way more crowded every time there is a technological advance (eg better bindings and skis have helped increase BC users a LOT); I'm sure jetpacks are in our future. Hell, chairlifts were first, and we have figured that out. So yes, we will do what we always do when there is a new technology: keep moving forward, even while we bitch about the good ol' days.

 

[wooglin]

What about the existing rider that has migrated over to eMTBs? What about the new user that got their first analog mountain bike?

Since we are going on "potentially", lets ban 700Hp super cars because they potentially cold go to fast. Lets ban Mustangs, because they could potentially attend a Cars & Coffee because they could crash. How about alcohol, because people could potentially get drunk.

No one is banning anyone here. Just putting on the brakes so the ramifications can actually be considered.

 

[crgildart]

Difference between crowed ski areas and crowded hiking trails... is ski areas make MORE MONEY when it's crowded. They're happy when that happens.. That's actually their objective..

As for 10 pages about what we can use at places that let us go there for free.. 10 pages of first world problem...

 

[tromano]

I think most people could agree that there maybe trails where historic Mtb use is sustainable, but Mtb plus ebike projected use long term puts too much disturbance on the landscape, not sustainable long term.

What if an alternative to this change to was managing ebikes and mtb the same but just designating those types of trails above as wilderness (study) areas. Would people be happier with that scenario? A pox on both houses.

I still think this decision is much more about conservation than user conflicts.

I also think the most mtb trailheads are already so disturbed that allowing ebikes as well would almost surely be a slam dunk and will only take until the paper work can be pushed through.

Isn't patience simply the cost of being good stewards to put public lands?

 

[fatbob]

It's incredible how insular the US has become.
In Europe, class 1e bikes have been legal for many years.
The usfs had plenty of time to observe them and prepare.

Beyond the usual NIMBY arguments (which amount to variants of local or old-timer privilege) this. If there is a problem with eBikes it's likely because of US "supersize" attitudes which has led manufacturers to overpower spec them. A bike which is ridden (and only capable of being ridden) at "trad" speeds is not much more of a threat than any new biker (and I hear the moans from the trad riders and think - yeah straight skis, plus give up your suspension and 29er wheels and droppers and trick rubber and long geometry etc).

A bike ridden more like a moto - sure should be limited in locations, a bike which gives a rider a small boost enabling them to ride more safely or more often or to get to the places they used to be able to go? Feels more than a little elitist and non diverse to shut those people out.

 

[crgildart]

It probably depends a LOT on whether or not there are actual people being paid to enforce such laws at the place where folks are riding. If not, I'd totally just do it anyway if it's really something most people are fine with.. which this seems to be where the Puglises and Minks ride. It sounds like the local MTB community appreciates their efforts there more than frowning on what they use to enjoy the goods.. I doubt anyone would stitch on them there and it sounds like there aren't enforcement authorities there.

As for places where you do encounter rangers fairly frequently.. Just go ride something else there or go somewhere else if they're not allowing that now. Lobby the authorities to reconsider.. I'd think the bike vendors have the most to lose if they can't sell as many bikes. Let's see how it plays out.

 

[Tom K.]

Since we are going on "potentially", lets ban 700Hp super cars because they potentially cold go to fast.

Cue Rush's Red Barchetta!

 

[wooglin]

If not, I'd totally just do it anyway if it's really something most people are fine with..

Not sure you can say most people are fine with something just because they don't say anything. Entitled people (and I'm not saying anyone here falls into that category by any means, or we wouldn't be having this discussion or it would be going differently) rarely listen to anyone who isn't in authority (and some not even then), so why would saying anything to them be effective? We don't allow ebikes on my local trails, but I don't say anything when I see them because it wouldn't do any good and I really don't need the aggravation. I do let the land managers know though.

The only time I call people out for their entitlement is when their actions are likely to get me banned. E.g., MTBs on foot travel only trails make all MTBers look bad, and that may get taken into account when MTB access to other trails is being contemplated. You can bet I call those people out.

 

[northwskier]

I guess I don't see what the big deal is with e assist (gotta pedal) bikes on bike/non-motorized trails. I'm doing no more damage than anyone on a non e bike. Can I go up faster? Sometimes, though I have been passed by good riders on analog bikes. Just like everything, a dick on an ebike will be a dick on an analog bike. Deal with the individual, not an entire group.

What makes you confidently say you are doing no more damage?

More weight and more power equals more trail wear, no way around it.

One potential bright side is ebike users will feel the same negative sentiment as moto riders and maybe they can band together for more trails.

 

[Philpug]

What makes you confidently say you are doing no more damage?

Knowing the speeds that we ride, slow and steady plus the conficence of an IMBA study that the do not create more damage.

More weight and more power equals more trail wear, no way around it.

Exactly where is that line drawn for weight? 200lb, 300lb? If I am 195 and on a 50lb bike and someone else is 240 on a 30lb bike, wouldn't he be causing more trail wear? The power is a non issue because the vast of the majority do damage is from down hill speeds which are the same with the assist in eMTB's cutting out at 20 MPH.

 

[crgildart]

Not sure you can say most people are fine with something just because they don't say anything. Entitled people (and I'm not saying anyone here falls into that category by any means, or we wouldn't be having this discussion or it would be going differently) rarely listen to anyone who isn't in authority (and some not even then), so why would saying anything to them be effective? We don't allow ebikes on my local trails, but I don't say anything when I see them because it wouldn't do any good and I really don't need the aggravation. I do let the land managers know though.

The only time I call people out for their entitlement is when their actions are likely to get me banned. E.g., MTBs on foot travel only trails make all MTBers look bad, and that may get taken into account when MTB access to other trails is being contemplated. You can bet I call those people out.

I wouldn't call anyone out unless I'm in immediate danger. Snitching on someone AFTER the encounter/sighting by a call to the parks department or 911 if serious is way more likely to happen. Around here way to many people are armed to be calling people out over petty stuff..

As for the current scenerio, I was under the impression that the Pugs and Minks are pretty active in the local trail riding community and confident that the others in that area ARE 100% OK with those types of bikes there..

 

[slow-line-fast]

Seems reasonable. Ebikes defined and categories (current technology) distinguished, then whether and where to allow certain shades of that gray zone outside current motorized access is left to specific units. Different decisions may be made in different places, then the results can be seen and compared. I get that it’s frustrating for current ebikers, but it makes sense in a lot of ways. It’s delicate, with a large group of gas-powered dirtbike users who can logically argue, why this motor and not that one?

I’ve only once tried an ebike, a very simple older model on roads. I was amazed how natural it felt to ride (I thought it would have a mind of its own). I can only imagine that modern, higher end emtbs are a blast to ride. I won’t buy one because of the price and too many other hobbies filling my time and space, including plain old mtb.

 

[wooglin]

As for the current scenerio, I was under the impression that the Pugs and Minks are pretty active in the local trail riding community

Yes, sounds like it for sure.

and confident that the others in that area ARE 100% OK with those types of bikes there..

This part I'm less sure of, for the reasons stated above.

 

[slow-line-fast]

Exactly! This ruling defines a new class of e-bikes (with three sub-classes) between analog

Food for thought: instead of backcountry mountain biking, think of backcountry skiing. How will the existing backcountry skiers respond when there's a new electronic mode of uphill travel somewhere between analog skins and a snowmobile. Will the current backcountry skiers welcome the new e-skiers and gladly share the powder?

I'm still waiting for eSkins. Sign me up.

Or just motorize (or motor-assist ) these things

(source www.grasski.at)

 

[Philpug]

How will the existing backcountry skiers respond when there's a new electronic mode of uphill travel somewhere between analog skins and a snowmobile. Will the current backcountry skiers welcome the new e-skiers and gladly share the powder?

Zoa Engineering

The Zoa pL1 is a portable rope tow for the backcountry

www.zoaeng.com

 

[Ken_R]

Exactly! This ruling defines a new class of e-bikes (with three sub-classes) between analog bikes and motorcycles, and that allows them all to be managed separately.

The e-bike crowd wanted to be considered just regular old bikes. Analog bikers don't want to be all lumped together for trail access, so this was a win for the analog side.


If the e-bikers had their way, it wouldn't be possible to ban e-bikes on the Colorado Trail as they currently are on many segments. They wanted the Forest Service to allow e-bikes anywhere analog bikes are permitted.


True. The difference is mountain biking has long been in the charter of the Colorado Trail.


It's not about if folks are in shape or not. It's about a new user type potentially degrading the experience for existing users. In some instances, the impact is minimal, and e-bikes should be allowed. In others, the impact may be deemed too great through a local process, and e-bikes not allowed.

There has to be some gatekeeping to maintain the backcountry experience. Too many people, and it's no longer a backcountry experience. Fitness and skills are the limiters that keep the backcountry experience what it is. If not for that, what keeps it from being overrun? Reservations?

Food for thought: instead of backcountry mountain biking, think of backcountry skiing. How will the existing backcountry skiers respond when there's a new electronic mode of uphill travel somewhere between analog skins and a snowmobile. Will the current backcountry skiers welcome the new e-skiers and gladly share the powder?

eBikes only really help with climbing. They do not really help with handling and if anything the extra weight degrades the handling of the bike. New users will quickly find out that it is not as easy as driving/riding a car and will move on or ride on easy trails. MTB trails are and will be MTB trails regardless. The only objection I really have is the added noise from the mechanism but again, a lot of analog MTBs are not exactly quiet but the hub noise is accepted I guess. The weight of the eBikes and the costs are limiters in their own right. Specially in the MTB eBike world.

Keep in mind, I ride and will keep riding an analog MTB. But I can see how eMTBs can make the sport a bit more accessible to those recovering from injury, training and getting in shape. Those are all positive things. To be clear I am only talking about Class 1 eBikes. All eBikes should not be treated equal, there is a reason for the class differentiation.

 

[crgildart]

How will the existing backcountry skiers respond when there's a new electronic mode of uphill travel somewhere between analog skins and a snowmobile. Will the current backcountry skiers welcome the new e-skiers and gladly share the powder?

Zoa Engineering

The Zoa pL1 is a portable rope tow for the backcountry

www.zoaeng.com

I was saying that will be frowned upon pretty soon...

What about using it at an actual lift served resort that allows uphill traffic???