Will ski boots designed with toes splaying (ie spreading toes) something that will catch on in ski boot design? It has with running shoes...

[MikeHunt]

Just thought of something in trying to understand the biomechanics of skiing.

With running, which most sports activities involve some kind motion of, the feet are trying to push the body off the ground. The shoes are an insignificant layer because one can also push the body off the ground barefoot.

With skiing, as we're sliding down the mountain, we're not really pushing the body off side to side the piste, as in a carve. Nor are we trying to stop the body from going further a breaking/stopping point downhill, as in a hockey stop.

What we're really trying to do really is push the skis into the snow.

I think this is where the comparison between shoes/sock in running and the socks/boots/binding/ski in skiing paradigm differ dramatically.

Imagine trying to push an inanimate object into the ground using the ball of your foot. Doesn't have to be skis. Let's say a piece of rock. Is it better to have a wider area of your foot to try to bury this object, toes splayed and all? Or is it better to compress your foot in trying to bury this object? Which is most energy conserving and has the most impact?

If someone can reexamine this "pushing an object into the snow" paradigm as opposed to "bouncing the body off the ground" on the rebound, we might go some ways in trying to understand if splay or compressed foot is more optimal from a physics and injury perspective.

 

[MikeHunt]

Just thought of something in trying to understand the biomechanics of skiing.

With running, which most sports activities involve some kind motion of, the feet are trying to push the body off the ground. The shoes are an insignificant layer because one can also push the body off the ground barefoot.

With skiing, as we're sliding down the mountain, we're not really pushing the body off side to side the piste, as in a carve. Nor are we trying to stop the body from going further a breaking/stopping point downhill, as in a hockey stop.

What we're really trying to do really is push the skis into the ground.

I think this is where the comparison between shoes/sock in running and the socks/boots/binding/ski in skiing paradigm differ dramatically.

Imagine trying to push an inanimate object into the ground using the ball of your foot. Doesn't have to be skis. Let's say a piece of rock. Is it better to have a wider area of your foot to try to bury this object, toes splayed and all? Or is it better to compress your foot in trying to bury this object? Which is most energy conserving and has the most impact?

If someone can reexamine this "pushing an object into the snow" paradigm as opposed to "bouncing the body off the ground" on the rebound, we might go some ways in trying to understand if splay or compressed foot is more optimal from a physics and injury perspective.

To examine this further, there are 2 forces involved with the foot in running:

1. The foot acting as a cushion between the body/leg and the ground during a foot plant. In this motion, the foot is trying to spread the downward force of the body/leg into a wide area as possible, which is why toe splay + ball is more efficient from an impact point of view to spread the body weight into a wide area as possible.

2. The foot pushing off the planted leg/body off the ground. In this motion, the toes are already splayed and the foot planted using the ball and it's just natural to push off the ground in this foot position.

For a normal everyday jogger, this is most efficient as it dissipates the most force during the foot plant to prevent injury by spreading the force in the muscle chain from upper body to back to leg to foot into a wide area as possible.

But for an athlete, this may not be the most efficient way to achieve speed. Most athletes need speed/acceleration and this is achieved by concentrating the area of the foot into the smallest point possible during the rebound (from the foot plant) to gain the most force. The compromise is that the impact on the foot plant is not dispersed as in a splayed toes/ball impact for a regular everyday jogger. But athletes are separated from mere everyday mortals and have superior genetics to overcome this impact (or are willing to compromise the risk of injury to achieve speed). Hence, why narrower shoes are still successful in marathons and other track sports.

 

[MikeHunt]

To examine this further, there are 2 forces involved with the foot in running:

1. The foot acting as a cushion between the body/leg and the ground during a foot plant. In this motion, the foot is trying to spread the downward force of the body/leg into a wide area as possible, which is why toe splay + ball is more efficient from an impact point of view to spread the body weight into a wide area as possible.

2. The foot pushing off the planted leg/body off the ground. In this motion, the toe is already splayed and it's just natural to push off the ground in this foot position.

For normal everyday jogger, this is most efficient as it dissipates the most force during the foot plant to prevent injury in the muscle chain from foot to leg to back.

But for an athlete, this may not be the most efficient way to achieve speed. Most athletes need speed and this is achieved by concentrating the area of the foot into the smallest point possible during the rebound (from the foot plant) to gain the most force. The compromise is that the impact on the foot plant is not dispersed as in a splayed toes/ball impact. But athletes are separated from mere everyday mortals and have superior genetics to overcome this impact (or are willing to compromise the risk of injury to achieve speed). Hence, why narrower shoes are still successful in marathons and other track sports.

This paradigm/dichotomy of splayed toes for everyday jogger or trail runner (trying to avoid injury) vs athlete using narrow shoes to achieve greater force/speed on the rebound may not apply to regular skiers and professional skiers.

The reason being a casual skier just skidding down the mountain and a professional GS skier trying to navigate gates at the fastest time are doing essentially the same thing: that is, moving skis with their foot.

The object-moving motion for the skis may be side to side for a casual skidder or digging the skis into the snow for a carver. Either way, splayed toes may not be the most efficient way to move the object that is the ski. Or to be more specific, the-boot-connected-to-binding-connected-to-skis.

There could be energy loss when there is slack space inside the boot forefoot where the toes are allowed to splay. A concentrated point might be the more efficient way for the body to move skis and this can be achieved with tighter boots without space inside where energy could dissipate.

 

[LiquidFeet]

All this talk is so far about "splay" refers to toes moving outward from each other to take up more space, then retracting to their previous position to take up a narrower space. "Splay" means this movement in the coversations above, right? This splay is most dramatic when the foot bends at the ball-of-foot, when walking and running. The foot doesn't bend in a ski boot, so I suppose the splay is less than in running if it happens at all. The type of arch support in the footbed, as I understand it, determines the extent to which the foot extends and the toes splay as underfoot pressures increase.

What about people whose toes, when relaxed and not under pressure of any sort, take up more lateral space than the ball-of-foot directly behind them? Mine do. My toes are wider than my ball-of-foot when my feet are dangling in the air. When those toes are scrunched into a pointy ski boot (or shoe of any sort), bad things happen. I've had ingrown toenails because of ski boot toe compression and painful surgery to fix them.

I am not much interested in the conversation about whether skiing is better if the toes have room to splay and retract and splay again. I just want a wide-enough toe box to eliminate the physical problems that will result from them being compressed up against each other over a season.

Are there others reading here who have toes wider than the ball-of-foot? Tulip-shaped feet?

 

[pchewn]

Are there others reading here who have toes wider than the ball-of-foot? Tulip-shaped feet?

Mine are not tulip-shaped. To get an idea of the shape of my feet, here's what my parents used to say when they would take me out to get shoes as a child:

"Got Pat a new pair of shoes at the store. Came home, threw the shoes away and the box fit his foot perfectly"

 

[Paul Lutes]

You'd be amazed how much one can change the forefoot of a ski boot. .....

Unless the boot has bellows, then yer hosed.

 

[markojp]

Unless the boot has bellows, then yer hosed.

You can even get some here.... I've had to make big toe room in my teley boots... no problem.

 

[neonorchid]

View attachment 134530

 

[Paul Lutes]

You can even get some here.... I've had to make big toe room in my teley boots... no problem.

I'm jealous; completely ruined a pair of Crispi Evo WC (super stiff-----> noodle flex) by punching out toe box.

 

[Wendy]

This is a great thread! I use Altra running shoes as well for the wide toe box. I had a pair of Tecnica ski boots that had very little toe room, and at the end of the season, I was achy all the time. I swear it took me months to recover. I wore Birkenstocks for a year (I kid you not) until my feet felt better. That next ski season, I skied in a pair of Roxa cabrio boots that had a lot of toe room, and, I used a ski sock that had each separate toe in it (I forget the brand). They were a PITA to put on, but that season, I swear, it saved my feet. The socks kept my toes separated more.

My Atomics don’t have as much room. I’m fine in them, but would love to have a boot with a bit more toe room so they can spread out. My Scarpa tele boots have a fair amount of toe room, which is good, because the boot flexes at the bellows.

In summer, I wear Birkenstocks except when I’m working outside or hiking, running, riding bike.

Like @newboots , I say “f you” to those stupid pointy toed pumps and dress boots!

 

[markojp]

I'm jealous; completely ruined a pair of Crispi Evo WC (super stiff-----> noodle flex) by punching out toe box.

What happened? I'm in the same boot.

 

[Paul Lutes]

Wish I could say definitively; tried to gain space around outer toe area, which as achieved, but the bellows apparently were inadvertently heated enough that they lost significant stiffness and become noticeably softer than my TX comps. I was warned going in that this was a possibility.

 

[markojp]

I remember well having to heat the bellows on the first iteration of the asymmetrical Scarpa bellows so they'd bend at all.

(My toe room work wasn't lateral with the Evo's, just needed a bit more length. )

 

[Paul Lutes]

I remember well having to heat the bellows on the first iteration of the asymmetrical Scarpa bellows so they'd bend at all.

(My toe room work wasn't lateral with the Evo's, just needed a bit more length. )

Holy carp poop, those first gen T1s were brutal! Stiff belllows until suddenly one crease lets go then all that bending was concentrated into that single crease which then proceeded to crush everything below it leading to the rise of the flower pot/milk between the liner (another clumsy early design) and the bellows.

 

[MikeHunt]

Two related issues here that get grouped together by the term "toe box"

The key area in terms of the forefoot width is the transverse arch, across the met. heads.

Liners must be added to this discussion, because they can be just as or more constricting than the shell. Liners with soft material for the forefoot, like Intuition, Zips or the older Atomic RT CS, can help a lot.

Was just watching this video and the question of liner constricting the foot more that the shell was asked (5:55 minute). Also questioned why a footbed is needed to be to the shaped in the contour of the liner sole when the 1st and 5th metatarsal/toes will go over the shape of the footbed anyway when the boot packs out.

Minute 8:35 has some solution from one of the bootfitters which I've never seen before, which is to rip out the sole of the liner and expand and sew a new expanded sole to the liner that has a contour of the shape of the skiers foot. And then the footbed can be shaped more to the natural shape of the foot and the 1st and 5th toe problems going over the footbed issue can be solved. I think this is an option most wide foot people should explore first before punching out a shell.

So yes, I agree the liner and footbed needs to be shaped and molded more than the shell and the excuse "just wait form them to expand after a few days/weeks/easons" is really not acceptble in my opinion. Nor it the normal heat moulded liner a sufficient solution for many wide foot people. The rip out and sew in a new liner sole should be seriously looked at.

 

[surfski]

I think what was done to that liner was to peel away the sole then cut the liner to expand it followed by reglueing the sole on rather than stitching it in place
I only point this out in case any one wishes to try doing this themselves but doesn't have a suitable sewing machine

 

[James]

I’ve heated and expanded a liner in width with a shoe expander. That was a non heat moldable race liner. The side was glued. If you need a lot you’d probably have to do the sewing thing or start with a different liner.

 

[Lauren]

Personally, I like a little space for my toes to spread. I've had one really narrow toe box in the past, and it reeked havoc on my 5th metatarsal, ending the season with a painful tailor's bunion. That was the summer I stopped wearing heels and dress shoes to the office allowing my feet to heal (so some good came out of a the situation). The following season I purchased a new pair of boots, with similar heel hold, a similar instep but the toe box was slightly wider. I did not notice a decline in performance...this could be due to my lack of performance to begin with .

Food for thought: Does ski width play into this discussion? How about conditions? With wider skis and soft conditions people tend to "surf" their skis, I can see how toe splay would actually improve a skier's performance, balance and control in this scenario. On hard snow and skinny skis you need to get the ski up on edge. That little bit of wiggle room could be a detriment to your performance creating a delay in getting the ski to turn over and engage.

 

[markojp]

Personally, I like a little space for my toes to spread. I've had one really narrow toe box in the past, and it reeked havoc on my 5th metatarsal, ending the season with a painful tailor's bunion. That was the summer I stopped wearing heels and dress shoes to the office allowing my feet to heal (so some good came out of a the situation). The following season I purchased a new pair of boots, with similar heel hold, a similar instep but the toe box was slightly wider. I did not notice a decline in performance...this could be due to my lack of performance to begin with .

Food for thought: Does ski width play into this discussion? How about conditions? With wider skis and soft conditions people tend to "surf" their skis, I can see how toe splay would actually improve a skier's performance, balance and control in this scenario. On hard snow and skinny skis you need to get the ski up on edge. That little bit of wiggle room could be a detriment to your performance creating a delay in getting the ski to turn over and engage.

FWIW, I don't ski with my toes, but from the met heads through the back of the arch of the foot with a focus on functional cuff contact, dorsiflexion/plantarflexion, and foot tipping. Toes can relax.

(I'm not an advocate of lifting toes to activate the TA, but focus on lifting the instep to achieve the same.)

 

[Wendy]

FWIW, I don't ski with my toes, but from the met heads through the back of the arch of the foot with a focus on functional cuff contact, dorsiflexion/plantarflexion, and foot tipping. Toes can relax.

(I'm not an advocate of lifting toes to activate the TA, but focus on lifting the instep to achieve the same.)

The only issue is if the toes are too constricted, they can’t really relax.