WOMEN’S World Cup 2021-2022

[Rudi Riet]

My quick $0.02 on why Mikaela didn't adapt to the funky snow in China: she doesn't free ski.

Mikaela has been trained to not waste a single inch of snow on skiing that isn't some kind of drill, some kind of working on carves, stivots, or whatever. She's always on groomed trails, always in a very controlled environment.

It's what she knows.

That said: she doesn't go out and play in the snow. Powder? Trees? Chutes? Terrain parks? She knows not of these things.

So if someone like Bode says she should improvise it simply doesn't compute because it's something she's never done. Bode's skills were built on a base of skiing all sorts of gnarly terrain at Cannon Mountain. Some of those trails (e.g. Tramline or Kinsman's Glade) are survival courses even when the snow is good. Bode built balance skills and recovery techniques as he conquered these extreme patches of terrain on his home mountain. And he still loves to play in the powder, trees, etc.

Mikaela's entire modus operandi for skiing is controlled environments, whether it's in the gates on simply on the trails. I remember seeing her ski down from the start after a wind-cancelled World Cup race and even when she was carrying a backpack full of gear she was working on high-quality slalom turns. Her default is to ski drills and this skiing was just that.

Maybe this will change with the shakeup of her coaching staff. Maybe it won't. And none of us will fully know why things went off the rails for her at the Olympics. As @Primoz and others had said, it's likely a combination of multiple factors. I'm simply pointing out why Bode's suggestions, as well meaning as they undoubtedly were, couldn't fly within Mikaela's mindset.

 

[no edge]

... totally agree with this.

 

[jimtransition]

This seems in some ways accurate, but it sort of ignores much of what Bode was saying: that the challenge of that unique, oddball, new tech/machine snow is not equally distributed over all racers and brands, for them to adjust to, to let the cream rise to the top, so to speak. Instead, one of the top three skis, in both tech and speed events, is designed in a way that is specifically attractive to the very best few slalom and tech racers (including especially Herscher and Mikaela), and yet that very design is particularly, unequally vulnerable - severely and unequally handicapped by - that oddball, one off snow, made no where else, at this point. So in this case, this obstacle was the opposite of what you are suggesting: in effect, it took the cream off the top and eliminated it from the mix - from contention.

The distinctive, challenging early carve of the Atomic SL race ski in particular is selectively attacked by this new snow-making tech. So it's as if you are saying in effect that Atomic needs to change their ski completely because skiing needs to be cozying up to the dollars and numbers of some "no ski history," unpopulated place(s) of questionable convenience and suitability, that has zero or almost zero natural snow, ever, and never will; and yet does have horrible wind, almost no humidity, and unusual cold - in a country that itself has no downhill ski race history to speak of, that is hostile to our way of life, increasingly.

Instead, this whole situation was just nuts, and unfair to the skiers, basically. Short term and long maybe questionable, along with the strategy of giving winter Olympics to places no one skis in, to entice them to ski, I guess.

I love the conspiracy vibes here, they 'selectively attacked' Atomic skiers by making dry snow!? Come on....

 

[ski otter 2]

In the time of the Pandemic.
It was a mountain where it almost never snows, no moisture in the air, and winds that both freeze and dry out bodies quickly, where few to none would live.
They contoured the mountain into artificial perfection, as if it were an ultra tall building project in downtown Beijing; or a new Hoover dam for the People's Prosperity and Glory.

"What's not to like?" said officials, who were intent on finding a place pure enough and dead enough for no locals to catch or give the dread plague, where athletes and others traveling from far, far away could be isolated, secured, unable to contaminate the locals. Perfect for a winter Olympics, they decided. And all the countries went along. Thus the games at the end of the world, just a stone's throw from the drop off. What could possibly go wrong?

I love the conspiracy vibes here, they 'selectively attacked' Atomic skiers by making dry snow!? Come on....

This is just what you are reading into what I wrote, not what I wrote. I assumed it was just what happened, not a conspiracy. The Atomic ski is distinctive, different. As a recreational user of Atomic SL skis, it's really obvious that it has pretty much what Bode said: an early, aggressive, to me almost a "leap" early in the turn. I had no idea why that was so, but Bode provided that in his discussion. If it's obvious to me, it's obvious to anyone who casually tries out that ski, let alone someone with Bode's depth of background. So your post is just distortion.

From Bode, it's now obvious to me in hindsight that more than likely, the Atomic SL, but maybe also the GS, were more "on the edge" or sensitive than the other brand skis, to what happened. And it turned out, it was more vulnerable in this odd, unanticipated situation. One that Primoz in particular so far has ignored, seems like. It's just an odd, Murphy''s Law situation, to me; and I'm glad Bode pointed it out.

Personally, I really like the Atomic FIS GS ski, probably in an easier version; but not that "on the edge," odd, unpredictable Atomic SL (very definitely in an easier version, in my case). (I happened to have lucked into owning a real but (softer side of?) medium racer version of each, at several points in the last few years.)
I got no chips in this game, except for liking and respecting Bode, and liking that GS ski.
(For SL recreationally, I like the Rossis better.)

The problem here is not solvable in the direction Primoz goes, also. (Also distortion?) The problem comes with attempts to expand the popularity or politics of the sport in far flung places, unknown and very different cultures and environments, and conditions, without enough prep being possible. Murphy's Law, to me, seems like, dunno. And I'm not blaming anyone, just as I am not talking any kind of conspiracy in the way just suggested.

If anything, the problem is one of making the sport more expanded artificially, though for understandable reasons, and all the possible Murphy's Law problems that came from that; for example, in both of the last two, relatively nutty winter Olympics. Kind of inevitable, without any conspiracies. But hard and stressful on the athletes, and to me not a particularly good way to encourage more racers to take part in the sport in a healthy way as children.

Covid must have been the biggest one, actually. Probably a big part of the reason that there was so little chance to gain advance knowledge of the location, the unique conditions there, the country, the Covid responses, etc. etc. Just a lot of factors. (And again, Murphy's Law.) There were unintended, at times controversial situations in both the last two Winter Olympics at least, as a result.

What do I care who was responsible cumulatively, individually or collectively? I just know that the strange factors in both the last two Olympics really distorted things and had unintended consequences. As Lindsey Vonn said in an interview after the previous Olympics, to paraphrase her comments as best as I can recall, the Olympics the last few times have become habitually a "wild card," not indicative of who is best in the sport. As she said, so much is new and different, and strange, that almost anyone can reach out and win an event, people who wouldn't maybe win on the tour. And she too was not talking about blame or any kind of conspiracy, just the facts of why she'd had to adjust her expectations of what to expect in the Olympics - a wild card, compared to much more predictable and possible results on the tour, for her. And for Mikaela, this time. And for Shawn White, in the last Olympics, Sochi. As Lindsey said, it was for her much easier - and better for her sanity - to anticipate her own success on the regular world tour instead - where the cream could actually rise to the top, instead of in the Olympics pot luck.

 

[JCF]

If I remember correctly didn’t the skiers using Heads do very well ?
Was that (if recalled correctly) a result of better ski tech, prep for the conditions or the skill of the athlete ?
All I would imagine contributed ?

I have no clue but just asking

 

[David Chaus]

I seem to recall that the skis hand-built for WC racing bear little resemblance to what is available for mere mortals, including the consumer skis that are "FIS" SL or GS skis. I can't imagine that one could judge a true WC racing ski as overall being more "on edge" than any other brand based on how the consumer models feel, if we were even skilled enough to be sensitive to those differences. Which I am probably not.

I do think that more time on a given course and the surface characteristics would help any skier or team figure it out better.

 

[geepers]

who were intent on finding a place pure enough and dead enough for no locals to catch or give the dread plague

Try not to let facts get in the way of a good story.

The city, the venue, the planning and development started years before said dread plague. IOC chose Beijing as host city in July 2015.

 

[James]

As Lindsey Vonn said in an interview after the previous Olympics, to paraphrase her comments as best as I can recall, the Olympics the last few times have become habitually a "wild card," not indicative of who is best in the sport.

The Olympic field is littered with failures by the best in the sport. Has been for decades. Bode tried to make the wcup point to the US public in Torino, to no avail. But everything went wrong for him there and he’s his own worst enemy publicly sometimes.

Everything is just heightened. More press, more interest, more distractions, more demands. Then there’s the issue that 4th doesn’t matter at the Olympics, but in wcup it does. So people try harder for third. Julia Mancuso is one who consistently did better in the Olympics than expected.

Not just another race. Lindsey Vonn reacts to being first in the downhill in Vancouver, 2010. That was her third Olympics and that day her first medal.

(Btw, she complained about the course in training as did others. Too bumpy, the last jump was too big and someone got hurt)

South Korea had man made snow issues. Michelle Gisin had a part of her base melt, and fall out during a downhill training run.

 

[ski otter 2]

Yeah, neat memories, great pic.

To me the whole Shawn White mess up, with the condition of the half pipe and snow wrecking the runs of those who went higher and faster on the approaches (mostly Shawn), tended to be the defining story of the Sochi Olympics. But in a good way, the amazing win of Ester Ledecka in the SG was a great peak moment of the Olympics also, an example Lindsey pointed out at the time, but also to me a wonderful "unexpected consequence" of the Olympic "wild card" days.

Also, thanks for the really wonderful details about Bode and his methods, and about Mikaela and hers, @Rudi Riet .

Try not to let facts get in the way of a good story.

The city, the venue, the planning and development started years before said dread plague. IOC chose Beijing as host city in July 2015.

But the main problems Mikaela and Atomic seem to have faced came in large part from Covid, not all that earlier planning, development, etc., except to make Murphy's Law more likely to strike. As I recall, not sure of all the calendar dates/details at this point, the planned attempts to preview that location with races and/or practices for the athletes well before the Olympics and maybe closer to the Olympics also, were cancelled because of Covid, and China's strict policy of dealing with it. Thus the athletes and their trainers were seeing the course - and snow - for the first time, just days before the event, no way to change that, as far as I know, as I believe I've read. Not enough time to make such drastic changes as would have been required, for example, with the Atomic skis, in all likelihood. Under earlier planning, and pre-Covid planning, the situation - and snow - would have been previewed by everybody well in advance. So another distortion.

And not as much a reflection on the Atomic athletes themselves (& Mikaela), except in their capacity to change up what they'd been doing - what had gotten them there in the first place, for most.

(Also, it just seems like, coddling up to dictators, unfortunately: how is that working out so far? Would that it had worked out better.)

I seem to recall that the skis hand-built for WC racing bear little resemblance to what is available for mere mortals, including the consumer skis that are "FIS" SL or GS skis. I can't imagine that one could judge a true WC racing ski as overall being more "on edge" than any other brand based on how the consumer models feel, if we were even skilled enough to be sensitive to those differences. Which I am probably not.

I do think that more time on a given course and the surface characteristics would help any skier or team figure it out better.

I know there are big differences, but also characteristic similarities often, near as I can tell. Both are, at times at least, pretty obvious. And I would not have mentioned my own skis for the reason you mentioned, except Bode's quick description matched my own skis/experience so well also, a bit surprising to me. As I wrote in the post above, I ski a pair of actual first round world cup Atomic 188/30 GS skis, I was told, ones that were in the batches of 30 or more pairs per skier that each top (woman) athlete sifted through. Fun ski. Additionally, if you listen to Bode's quick description of the Atomic ski (not sure if he was differentiating between GS versions or SL), that description was also like the overall characteristic quality of the other recent pairs I've owned also, very accurate description, especially for the SL pairs, to me. Whatever skis I've tried myself, Bode certainly had access to top pairs; and his description covered mine also, to a tee - both my GS racer's pair and my probably more consumer SL pairs (even more). That was just neat to me.

 

[James]

Just happened on this article from Chemmy Alcott, the British former wcup/Olympic skier. Though I can’t read more of it without subscription

———————-
Set-up
At a World Cup downhill race like Kitzbühel the professionals make their edges razor sharp to counter the bullet-proof ice. However, the colder, man-made snow in Beijing will be grippier, meaning extra sharp edges will overski the turns, causing a loss of speed.

Everyone will have been tinkering and trying to find the perfect set-up over the past few days and I suspect the majority will end up deliberately blunting their edges. It will allow the ski to flatten
———————

Winter Olympics: Blunter skis and absorb the jumps — how to master the Beijing downhill

The men’s downhill begins in the early hours of Sunday morning on an unusual Winter Olympic run characterised by man-made snow, four jumps and a quarterpipe tur

www.thetimes.co.uk

 

[geepers]

Yeah, neat memories, great pic.

To me the whole Shawn White mess up, with the condition of the half pipe and snow wrecking the runs of those who went higher and faster on the approaches (mostly Shawn), tended to be the defining story of the Sochi Olympics. But in a good way, the amazing win of Ester Ledecka in the SG was a great peak moment of the Olympics also, an example Lindsey pointed out at the time, but also to me a wonderful "unexpected consequence" of the Olympic "wild card" days.

Also, thanks for the really wonderful details about Bode and his methods, and about Mikaela and hers, @Rudi Riet .



But the main problems Mikaela and Atomic seem to have faced came in large part from Covid, not all that earlier planning, development, etc., except to make Murphy's Law more likely to strike. As I recall, not sure of all the calendar dates/details at this point, the planned attempts to preview that location with races and/or practices for the athletes well before the Olympics and maybe closer to the Olympics also, were cancelled because of Covid, and China's strict policy of dealing with it. Thus the athletes and their trainers were seeing the course - and snow - for the first time, just days before the event, no way to change that, as far as I know, as I believe I've read. Not enough time to make such drastic changes as would have been required, for example, with the Atomic skis, in all likelihood. Under earlier planning, and pre-Covid planning, the situation - and snow - would have been previewed by everybody well in advance. So another distortion.

And not as much a reflection on the Atomic athletes themselves (& Mikaela), except in their capacity to change up what they'd been doing - what had gotten them there in the first place, for most.

(Also, it just seems like, coddling up to dictators, unfortunately: how is that working out so far? Would that it had worked out better.)

So what's your point again? Kind of losing track...

Is it that it was all so unfair to Atomic athletes they didn't get to try the novel conditions? Although why that matters since it was the same for everybody. And as per James' post, apparently, people were capable of predicting some of the consequences.

Is it that we shouldn't hold events in countries unless they are democracies? That's an entirely different topic, has nothing to do with the performance of athletes and probably doesn't belong in the women's WC discussion thread.

 

[jimtransition]

What do I care who was responsible cumulatively, individually or collectively? I just know that the strange factors in both the last two Olympics really distorted things and had unintended consequences. As Lindsey Vonn said in an interview after the previous Olympics, to paraphrase her comments as best as I can recall, the Olympics the last few times have become habitually a "wild card," not indicative of who is best in the sport. As she said, so much is new and different, and strange, that almost anyone can reach out and win an event, people who wouldn't maybe win on the tour. And she too was not talking about blame or any kind of conspiracy, just the facts of why she'd had to adjust her expectations of what to expect in the Olympics - a wild card, compared to much more predictable and possible results on the tour, for her. And for Mikaela, this time. And for Shawn White, in the last Olympics, Sochi. As Lindsey said, it was for her much easier - and better for her sanity - to anticipate her own success on the regular world tour instead - where the cream could actually rise to the top, instead of in the Olympics pot luck.

Last Olympics before Beijing were Pyeongchang 2018. I agree that the Olympics are often different to the WC, the snow in Vancouver was also too soft/in short supply for many events. But that's kind of the point of the Olympics, it's just what it is. Also no traditional ski
countries even bid for the last games, so not surprising it ends up in atypical locations.

 

[Primoz]

Just happened on this article from Chemmy Alcott, the British former wcup/Olympic skier. Though I can’t read more of it without subscription

———————-
Set-up
At a World Cup downhill race like Kitzbühel the professionals make their edges razor sharp to counter the bullet-proof ice. However, the colder, man-made snow in Beijing will be grippier, meaning extra sharp edges will overski the turns, causing a loss of speed.

Speed is still a bit different, as "razor sharp" for speed is not "razor sharp" for SL and GS, but yeah, with aggressive snow you don't have as sharp edges as with pure ice. It's not really something uncommon, and for Beijing, I know for at least one guy, who ended up with medal, that they went from doing edges with machine to doing edges by hand for race. That's what I call being able to adapt. Even though every single training run, every single race of season is done on edged done by machine, you try and do it differently for Olympics.... and end up with medal. If they would keep what he is used to ski, I'm pretty sure, he wouldn't have medal now.

 

[markojp]

I love the conspiracy vibes here, they 'selectively attacked' Atomic skiers by making dry snow!? Come on....

Better dead than Red? Hey, wait a minute..... !?!

 

[markojp]

Try not to let facts get in the way of a good story.

The city, the venue, the planning and development started years before said dread plague. IOC chose Beijing as host city in July 2015.

And of course the IOC in their infinite grace, wisdom, and integrity, never lets a dollar get in the way of an ideal venue decision....

 

[skiJ]

So what's your point again? Kind of losing track...

Is it that it was all so unfair to Atomic athletes they didn't get to try the novel conditions? Although why that matters since it was the same for everybody. And as per James' post, apparently, people were capable of predicting some of the consequences.

Is it that we shouldn't hold events in countries unless they are democracies? That's an entirely different topic, has nothing to do with the performance of athletes and probably doesn't belong in the women's WC discussion thread.

no. and

no.


( skiJ )

 

[James]

Bode thought that Hirscher with his aggressive style might have had the same problem of hooking a tip in slalom or hipping out in gs as Shiffrin. He also called them the two best in his lifetime.

Shiffrin’s hip out.

Results in women’s slalom vs rankings pre race. Not exactly a surprise other than Shiffrin, and some big moves up like Slokar.

 

[HardDaysNight]

What could possibly go wrong?

Except in the case of Shiffrin, nothing did!

 

[Muleski]

Back to @Primoz’s most recent post, and what I think his main point was. Anybody with the skills and experience to be a serviceman at that level knows how to adapt the skis to the surface. No matter how odd, dry, contaminated, and new. Whatever the weather. Might take some experimenting to get it nailed, but doable.

I realize that the track is new, but pretty high level FIS races in that very region are not new and I know for fact that plenty of info, data and opinions were shared before they arrived. In addition, a lot was learned in Korea. These OWG’s missed the sand storms and the grit in the “snow” that ruined so many skis last time around, but still somewhat similarly weird stuff.

And yes, the Olympics are a totally different thing, and when in a virtually new continent with all sorts of variables, pretty neat and completely unforeseen things happen, like Ledecka’s gold in SG! As many have said you never know…it’s NOT the WC.

Back to knowing how to get skis prepped for the surface. At the recent U16 Nationals, they raced SG first. It was raced on the same hill as the US Nationals and NorAm finals the weeks before. Not a WC hill, at all, by today’s standards, but pretty darn “legit”…and a good test for the best of that age. And they had had a lot of New England weather.

The night before the race, the coach doing the tuning for one of the bigger clubs tells me that he was winding up his work, and thinking he had made the right call with the skis. They had more kids there than anybody there. BTW, he is a coach, not a full time tech. But he's good at it.

Two of the US Race Directors for a couple of companies, who he knows well, swing by. They look at a pair of the skis. One guy says “Wow, SHARP....I don’t think I’d send one of these kids out of the gate on that hill on those skis…to race SG. But that's me.” The other guy says….”I think we’ll wait to see….might be the right call. ”

Coach explains. His kids are from the Rockies. Have zero experience with humidity, damp, naturally icy stuff. They train every day on the most aggressive, dry snow that there is. Two different worlds. He wants the kids to be able to ski as they know how and just send it, without being shocked by the surface. Make clean turns. A plus is that he has LOTS of experience on the hill, coaching, racing, prepping skis.

Next day his little guys sweep the podium. And dominate the top ten. Skis probably ran as fast as anybody’s but that was not the goal. Was not some glide track. Skis were on edge a lot. Skis were all tuned with his SnowGlide and touched a tiny bit with a surgical stone, I think. Sharp. And the perfect setup.

If this event was held at a place like BC, or Tahoe, or Mammoth, the SnowGlide would have stayed in his Zarges box. No razor sharp skis. Snow would be far too aggressive.

That is very, very basic tech 101. Seriously. It's not rocket science.

I want to circle back to Bode, Atomic, and WC SL. Bode last raced on Atomic in 2006. 16 years ago. Lots of changes in almost everything related to SL since. His observations could well be spot on, but relating anything to his experience on the product that Atomic built for him is odd to me. And he knows fun well that many of Hirscher's skis wore Atomic colors, but were built let's say, differently. I know Bode and in anything, when he starts to talk, he can get into it with his own unique and convincing thinking. At times spot on, at times having people shaking their heads. I like him. He is smart.

Bode went to Atomic because he essentially was given retiring Stefan Eberharter’s complete program. Skis, knowledge and serviceman Tom Buergler. All DH/SG and some GS based. Eberharter was no SL skier. Bode's SL started to become more limited at that point. Just a thought. And Bode was on Atomic for two seasons before Eliasch brought him to Head. Trivia question. Who was the only other American athlete on Head at the time? Caroline Lalive. It was a while ago.

Not saying that Bode’s observations about anything are wrong. They may be spot on. He has A LOT more credibility than some guy on a laptop in his basement! But SO many changes in so many elements with men's SL. Like sets, surfaces, etc. It's not the same, nor are the skis. And I would say at least on the WC, as many changes for the women.

To me, seems like every company, athlete, country…..and every serviceman had a shot to get it right In Beijing. Seems like most adapted.

@Primoz knows SO much more about this than I ever will…..I always listen.

It also "seems" to those a bit involved and informed that there were many many factors that could have affected Mikaela's games. Maybe more than the skis? A lot more? It's too bad. I still feel badly for her. She is such a phenom, and for two weeks, was not. Her end to the season was tremendous. Again, could be so many factors. Might be the surface and her skis? Or, maybe not at all?

I'm done commenting on this one. Nothing to add, no insight. @Primoz's post just got me thinking and agreeing on the teching.

 

[James]

We also don’t know what they did to her ski’s setup. The idea that they tuned them the same way as for solid ice seems pretty far fetched. But we have zero info.

Who knows, maybe her own adaptive skills were lower that week, and she didn’t ski long enough to get through it in the GS, the first event. She dnf’d on the first run after like 6 gates.