I feel like we've been sitting around the e-table for years with our e-beers
talking about what Moonlight Basin wants to be when it grows up. The economy may lead them to their answer.-
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Northern Rockies/Alberta 2022-2023 Big Sky Resort/Conditions/Meetups
- Thread starter skidrew
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talking about what Moonlight Basin wants to be when it grows up. The economy may lead them to their answer.Agreed. O&O will force some serious changes. The issue continues to be that BSR is far far far behind LMLC. I can’t imagine a O&O guest/owner riding six shooter. They’re going to be unhappy after riding in their nice tram to SS base.
I've gotta believe that bankruptcies at Moonlight, SP and reorganization at TC made Boyne more cautious. While each segment of the market is important, I'm not sure the very highest end of the real estate market ( O&O - SP) has a significant impact on season ticket sales which pay for lift expansions. Headwaters relocation is still on the menu and Iron Horse upgrade is still needed. Thunderwolf could be improved but I agree it's probably low on the priority list unless it becomes less reliable.
I expected Boyne to develop their property above the base area but it looks like they missed out on the recent real estate boom.
My needs are different than the typical BS property owner but I don't understand what folks do at night on the Moonlight or SP side of the mountain. Private clubs are great but "variety is the spice of life". There isn't much activity at the original base area but it's a lot more than the other two added together.
I expected Boyne to develop their property above the base area but it looks like they missed out on the recent real estate boom.
My needs are different than the typical BS property owner but I don't understand what folks do at night on the Moonlight or SP side of the mountain. Private clubs are great but "variety is the spice of life". There isn't much activity at the original base area but it's a lot more than the other two added together.
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TS
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^ Anyone know how all the pieces of the pie are sliced up? My (probably incorrect) impression is that Boyne owns the ski resort itself as well as the lodging at the base (Summit, Huntley, Shoshone, etc.). But the rest of the real estate is owned by others (whether homeowners or development companies). Doesn't that create a challenge to align interests - the RE companies need Boyne to invest on-mountain, but Boyne doesn't have as much incentive to do so because those improvements drive people not only to their lodging but also to the real estate, which they don't benefit from.
That said, Boyne does seem to be investing relatively heavily on mountain, though not necessarily in the places us skiers might want.
That said, Boyne does seem to be investing relatively heavily on mountain, though not necessarily in the places us skiers might want.
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@skidrew - you are on the right track.
Disclaimer: I’m in no way affiliated with the resort or any of the big players but spend a fair amount of time at YC, SP and Moonlight in both work and play. Some of this intel is from work and chairlift chats from some much higher in the food chain and some just my .02
YC and their RE arm, LML ( lone mountain land ) just about own it all of the property left here in big Sky and parts of the Galliton valley.
During the hard times when SP and Moonlight went under there was a chance for LML / YC to purchase off mountain property and also propped BS up financially, they basically own all of the prime RE parts of both.
There was even the attempt to buy all of Moonlight by YC and book end Boyne with private resorts, their goal at that time was to put lifts to lone tree from the base as well as a lift up onto North Summit. If you’ve ever skied the club, double diamond, legit terrain is in play !
Anyway , back to the lift questions
The goal of Boyne s to maximize the money from THEIR typical guest, not the Montage or the O&O, guests. Those two are still a long way from being complete, the Montage even had to close early last year as it is already plagued with staffing issues and repairs from faulty work.
Boyne’s goal of being the American Alps and a ski school centric business model is to maximize the dollar spent in tickets and with ski school. Their 2025 vision including the tram is to get guests to the summit whether summer or winter, whether skiing, boarding or just sight seeing. That is a true European alp experience.
The two stage gondola is another aspect of that as well .The true beginner will also be able to up on the mountain offering a completely different experience than they have been in the congested base area.
My theory is that once those two outline projects are complete and up and running and that will be another quasi-relationship formed where in they will pony up and help pay for the lifts on those outlying areas to satisfy their guests.
Until then Boyne will concentrate getting people out of the primary base area for their lodging and their guests and the six shooter, SoCo saga will continue
Disclaimer: I’m in no way affiliated with the resort or any of the big players but spend a fair amount of time at YC, SP and Moonlight in both work and play. Some of this intel is from work and chairlift chats from some much higher in the food chain and some just my .02
YC and their RE arm, LML ( lone mountain land ) just about own it all of the property left here in big Sky and parts of the Galliton valley.
During the hard times when SP and Moonlight went under there was a chance for LML / YC to purchase off mountain property and also propped BS up financially, they basically own all of the prime RE parts of both.
There was even the attempt to buy all of Moonlight by YC and book end Boyne with private resorts, their goal at that time was to put lifts to lone tree from the base as well as a lift up onto North Summit. If you’ve ever skied the club, double diamond, legit terrain is in play !
Anyway , back to the lift questions
The goal of Boyne s to maximize the money from THEIR typical guest, not the Montage or the O&O, guests. Those two are still a long way from being complete, the Montage even had to close early last year as it is already plagued with staffing issues and repairs from faulty work.
Boyne’s goal of being the American Alps and a ski school centric business model is to maximize the dollar spent in tickets and with ski school. Their 2025 vision including the tram is to get guests to the summit whether summer or winter, whether skiing, boarding or just sight seeing. That is a true European alp experience.
The two stage gondola is another aspect of that as well .The true beginner will also be able to up on the mountain offering a completely different experience than they have been in the congested base area.
My theory is that once those two outline projects are complete and up and running and that will be another quasi-relationship formed where in they will pony up and help pay for the lifts on those outlying areas to satisfy their guests.
Until then Boyne will concentrate getting people out of the primary base area for their lodging and their guests and the six shooter, SoCo saga will continue
I think you’re right.
YC is freestanding but certainly is impacted by what happens at BS.
Our mountain has a unique setup with one primary real estate developer and one ski area resort operator. Two different folks.
There may have been some reset of priorities since the 2025 plan was published.
Boyne has a contract to maintain the mountains, operate the lifts, provide ski patrol and ski schools. Their revenue includes ticket sales, on mountain food, ski schools, equipment rental and lodging around the old base. Their paying customers are the high end resort vacation skiers and locals. Building lifts at Moonlight may enhance the overall BS experience but might not funnel much revenue to Boyne.
The Tram, on mountain restaurants, training center and Gondola are Boyne projects that benefit Boyne.
My guess is those who own the land and benefit most from Moonlight real estate expansion will need to help fund those chair lifts. Same may be true for the SoCo lift.
Boyne’s only real estate development is near the original base area. Most of their real estate projects have been structured to support vacation skiers.
Thread Starter
TS
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This is a great econ/biz school hypothetical! In theory both Boyne and LML and other property holders *should* be able to figure out a way to work together and split costs, but probably both sides view the other one has who should bear most of the costs, plus it's costly to negotiate. Boyne for rational reasons as you say @milkman is putting its resources where it will capture 100% (or close to) of the revenue, and not where it won't. At some point perhaps it will see a way to generate revenue from improvements at Moonlight, but until then it will sit back and let Moonlight et al. deal with it or put up some money. Added challenge there is with a lot of property sold already they don't really have an incentive to make imrpovements for their benefit, just for folks who are "new" sales and may not know the situation with the lift infrastructure.
I have no inside info either but I enjoy the discussion and it’s fun to make “educated guesses”.
This summer the big green 3D model of the mountain with tiny chair lifts was still in the LML Meadow Office. It shows a lift from the bottom of 6 Shooter to top of Lone Tree and two lifts above the Country Club into a “Moonlight Expansion Area”. It’s gotta attract a lot of attention from their customers.
Not the 2025 plan but maybe someone else’s vision of the lift buildout.
Sure would improve access to a lot of great ski terrain and support real estate development.
Win - Win opportunity?
This summer the big green 3D model of the mountain with tiny chair lifts was still in the LML Meadow Office. It shows a lift from the bottom of 6 Shooter to top of Lone Tree and two lifts above the Country Club into a “Moonlight Expansion Area”. It’s gotta attract a lot of attention from their customers.
Not the 2025 plan but maybe someone else’s vision of the lift buildout.
Sure would improve access to a lot of great ski terrain and support real estate development.
Win - Win opportunity?
Hi guys, greetings from the UT thread. Eying Big Sky for ealry December, 6-9. How fast are they with opening terrain? I see they have a pretty impressive roster for Opening Day with Ramcharger, Swift, Challenger, and Iron Horse. I'm sure the high alpine terrain will still be off limits but Moonlight? Thunder Wolf? Powder Seeker? Lone Tree?
Just caught wind we are opening a day early this year. Low angle BC in beehive and Nordic is already good so I’m thinking the lower than alpine terrain should be nice, will report back once I’m airborne.
We need more snow to open the rock faces. We’re projected to get more snow Wednesday, but Big Sky is showing a low forecast.
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Airborne = on the lift ride up
Ha... that seriously did not occur to me as a possible meaning.
Big Sky is enjoying a really amazing opening week! Here's an update on conditions for anyone interested.
Overall Conditions
Well, things are good! Things are so good that we’ve got our best opening conditions…maybe ever? We’re benefiting from a combination of early snow, consistently cold temps, and small but consistant refills over the last few weeks.
We’ve gotten a series of dusting over the last few days which has kept the snow feeling fresh and fun.
On most of the mountain, conditions are nice packed pow with some light piles on the edges. Overall, this is an opening to celebrate!
Andesite
Ram Charger
*Ramcharger 8 is the only lift open (for now!) on Andesite. The good news is that from Ram8 you’ve got a great selection of blue groomers and blue trees. *
*Not open yet - mostly due to staffing *
Thunderwolf
*Not open yet - mostly due to staffing *
Swift Current Area
*Things off Swift Current 6 are skiing similarly to Andesite. Winds have kept the Eastern facing stuff nicely covered. *
*Interestingly, The Bowl is often the best early season snow. While it is quite nice right now, it may not be the best skiing on the mountain. Visibility has been poor and there are LOTS of shark teeth to watch for.
Remember!!! If it is untracked at Big Sky there’s a reason why! I watched someone try and ski off Steep and Deep into untracked and it didn’t go well for him or his skis.*
*Sadly I haven’t been up to Chally yet. I’ve heard two reports:
Tram and High Alpine
*Liberty is the the only thing open. If you have unlimited tram rides, it is worth exploring and the lines are non-existent. Be aware, you’ll have a VERY long run from the bottom of Liberty around Skittles Road to get home. *
Madison Side
*Iron Horse, if you don’t mind the long slow ride, has access to some nice stuff right now. *
Operations
The mountain is running really well and the stoke level is high! Staff are still arriving and going through orientation and training. The result is a smooth operation, but one that is somewhat limited. Expect more terrain to open as staffing ramps up.
The Canyon
The Canyon has 90% dry. The bridges and shadows have a little bit of packed snow.
The road up the mountain is mostly dry too.
If you are feeling unsure or want to take your time, that is totally fine. Please be considerate and pull over to let other traffic pass.
Remember, if there are more than three cars behind you, Montana law says you have to use the pull outs to let them pass.
Overall Conditions
Well, things are good! Things are so good that we’ve got our best opening conditions…maybe ever? We’re benefiting from a combination of early snow, consistently cold temps, and small but consistant refills over the last few weeks.
We’ve gotten a series of dusting over the last few days which has kept the snow feeling fresh and fun.
On most of the mountain, conditions are nice packed pow with some light piles on the edges. Overall, this is an opening to celebrate!
Andesite
Ram Charger
*Ramcharger 8 is the only lift open (for now!) on Andesite. The good news is that from Ram8 you’ve got a great selection of blue groomers and blue trees. *
- Tippys & Ambush: Tippy’s is skiing excellently and is a great place to lay your skis on edge make some great turns. Surprisingly, given the lighter crowds, even Ambush is skiing pretty well. The removal of the old snowmaking building and the old NASTAR building has opened Ambush up a bit too.
- Blackfoot, Blue Room & Trees: Blackfoot is mostly covered, but ski with caution. I found a buried tree trunk today. But, and this can’t be stressed enough, it is open in November! And it is lovely in there.
- Africa & Safari: Africa, right now, has some fantastic bumps for ripping a zipper. They are soft, they are consistent, and they are wonderful.
- Nile & Congo: Congo is open and is remarkably covered. It’s got nice soft bumps and the ruts aren’t too deep. If you want to be in the trees, this is the place to be! Below Congo, Madagascar is also open and is skiing really well.
- Pacifier: The regrading is amazing - you have to check it out. The new Pacificer makes getting newer skiers back down to the base area so much easier and nicer.
*Not open yet - mostly due to staffing *
Thunderwolf
*Not open yet - mostly due to staffing *
- Elk Park & Meadow:
Swift Current Area
*Things off Swift Current 6 are skiing similarly to Andesite. Winds have kept the Eastern facing stuff nicely covered. *
- CJ & Lobo - CJ, while usually avoidable, is ok right now with the lighter crowds. There are some mild bumps on the right edge of the headwall and the top pitch has some harder packed snow which some riders might think is a bit icy. Lobo is less tracked out and is really fun for anyone looking for side hits.
- Soul Hole - Sigh… I don't want to tell you about this because you’ll go there… but you should be in Soul Hole right now! It’s covered, it's soft, it's sticky in a good way and even the Bonus Features are stellar.
- Rice Bowl & Buff Jump - Rice Bowl has been closed. Buff Jump, when accessed from Crazy Horse, has some of the nicest snow that is a mix of chalky snow and left over pow.
- Tango - much like Soul Hole, I'd prefer we keep this one a secret between you and I reader
Tango also benefits from some terrain changes and, if you want, you can even get over to Mr. K now.. - Mr. K & Lower Morningstar Mr. K is a bit crowded right now but the snow is good. It will benefit from a grooming and newer skiers may find the looser snow a bit more challenging than expected.
*Interestingly, The Bowl is often the best early season snow. While it is quite nice right now, it may not be the best skiing on the mountain. Visibility has been poor and there are LOTS of shark teeth to watch for.
Remember!!! If it is untracked at Big Sky there’s a reason why! I watched someone try and ski off Steep and Deep into untracked and it didn’t go well for him or his skis.*
- The Bowl: The “gut” is really nice. It's well covered. There are soft small bumps that can be managed easily and advanced skiers will have no problem charging the line.
- Upper Morningstar: No data
*Sadly I haven’t been up to Chally yet. I’ve heard two reports:
- Moonlight bumps are absolutely amazing
- The snow is firm and punchy
Tram and High Alpine
*Liberty is the the only thing open. If you have unlimited tram rides, it is worth exploring and the lines are non-existent. Be aware, you’ll have a VERY long run from the bottom of Liberty around Skittles Road to get home. *
Madison Side
*Iron Horse, if you don’t mind the long slow ride, has access to some nice stuff right now. *
Operations
The mountain is running really well and the stoke level is high! Staff are still arriving and going through orientation and training. The result is a smooth operation, but one that is somewhat limited. Expect more terrain to open as staffing ramps up.
The Canyon
The Canyon has 90% dry. The bridges and shadows have a little bit of packed snow.
The road up the mountain is mostly dry too.
If you are feeling unsure or want to take your time, that is totally fine. Please be considerate and pull over to let other traffic pass.
Remember, if there are more than three cars behind you, Montana law says you have to use the pull outs to let them pass.
Thread Starter
TS
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^ Great report. Jealous!
So they removed the Nascar course on Ambush?
What's the regrading of Pacifier like - wider? Different track? If better, that's good, because it's really a bummer for any beginning skier to have such awful choices to return from Andesite to base.
So they removed the Nascar course on Ambush?
What's the regrading of Pacifier like - wider? Different track? If better, that's good, because it's really a bummer for any beginning skier to have such awful choices to return from Andesite to base.
Thread Starter
TS
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More *skiable* ice
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