A Peak Into Reservation System/VR SNAFUS

[Jersey Skier]

I got a little foreshadowing of that last December. Every first weekend in December Appalachain has $5 day tickets for their anniversary celebration. Last December I walk up to the ticket window like I've done the past 10 plus years and they charge me $60 I tell them I wanted the anniversary special ticket. The tell me that's online only this year. I say, OK nevermind and pulled out my phone to buy it online and picked it up at the online pick up window..

Now imagine if they told you you had to reserve those and we have no more tickets at all for today.

 

[Scrundy]

I think I’d be concerned as a pass holder “if true”
A person committed that there’s only 1 day available in Dec. If the season was going to be like that I think I’d just put the skis up for the season.

 

[EricG]

Methinks people are just lashing out because social media provides an outlet.

Exactly. Everything has been talked about, presented on the site, sent via email, it people like to complain!

 

[eok]

At our local resort - Mt Bachelor - the resort's new parking reservation system is ruffling a lot of feathers.

https://www.mtbachelor.com/plan-your-trip/getting-here/parking-reservations

An online petition on change.org has been launched to focus customer concerns.

https://www.change.org/p/mt-bachelor-establish-a-fair-parking-reservation-system-at-mt-bachelor

From what I can tell so far, the main gripes fall into three categories:

1) Outplay 365 pass holders seem to get prioroty:

Outplay 365 is a year round pass that covers summer-winter Ops and is pricier than just a winter season pass. Apparently, policy dictates that Outplay 365 pass holders do not need to reserve a parking space during this ski season. This REALLY rankles some long-time ski season pass holders.​

2) Loopholes in the parking reservation policy:

No controls on people riding the shuttle buses to the resort. Basically: ride the suttle to the resort, get dropped off, boot up & ski. But many folks don't see the bus ride as part of valid covid-safe policies.​

​

No controls if people drive skiers to the mountain and drop them off. Similar deal as with the shuttle bus. I could foresee an immediate local Uber specialty service emerging around this - especially on big powder days. I could also see groups of friends cramming into a buddie's van to get dropped off (again, not exactly covid-safe).​

​

[My opinion: If the shuttle bus and other "drop off" forms of transportation to the resort really become popular this season, that would seem to negate the whole idea behind the parking reservation system to control the number of folks on the mountain in a reliable/trackable way.]​

3) Weekend skiers are particularly at a disadvantage in all of this:

Reading the comments on the petition site & elsewhere, a number of weekend warriors have already found all weekend parking slots booked through Feb (that's as of 11/18/2020).​

Also:
Despite Mt Bachelor doing a reasonable job communicating operations changes this year, I expect there will still be folks traveling here to ski that will be confused/surprised by things - and some will have their ski days negatively impacted somehow.

Me? I'm sitting back with some pop corn & watching how the season & pandemic plays out through March. Hoping things will work out & settle down by March & I can get a lot of spring laps in.

 

[AmyPJ]

Interesting stuff about how things are shaking out at Bachelor. Snowbasin has a completely non-transparent plan to limit parking and somehow limit(??) capacity on the hill. How they will "limit" capacity is a mystery. With multiple points of entry and no RFID, I don't see how they'll actually know how many people are on the mountain. I will say, it's a much different plan than I've seen from other large resorts, but with two of the 3 main lifts that run top-to-bottom being gondolas, I anticipate...a shit show. Will it create a morning rush unlike any we've seen there? (and that rush has gotten really bad in the past two seasons.)

I think there have been a lot of "shot in the dark" approaches by the resorts. Were there any models that can be followed from Australia?

If VR closes one mountain, will they close them all? What will happen to the rest of the resorts? Will it be like dominoes falling? Will resorts with gondolas and trams be impacted more? So many questions!

 

[TDCSPRINGS]

I don't Facebook.

Edit: But now that I'm on my computer, I can see a handful comments.

I will say, the person complaining that they're working and can't access the reservation system at 2 PM MST has a fair point. I'd really like to see Vail move to a system where people register interest several days in advance and then just confirm via email, but I do have to give Vail credit for at least coming up with a system that's pretty stable and reasonably fair given the timeframe. The biggest issue I see currently is that the "waiting room" system is a little too easy to game (if you're on a computer at the right time), since you're given a place in line before logging in.

I have very little sympathy for the one person I see complaining that they could only book 7 days over a 10-day period. I think even that ratio is going to be rather optimistic this season.

There are definitely some oddities with the waiting room. My wife and I both both accessed the site at 12:58 (waiting room opens at 1:00) and were put in the waiting room at exactly 1:00. At 2:00 we were both given our place in line. My wife was given a spot in the 8,000s and I was given a spot in the 50,000s. Since our epic passes are linked, my wife was able to get on to reserve our Thanksgiving holiday days. When it became my turn, 2 of the 4 days we booked were already full.

I don't know what the right answer is, and I know VR is trying, but I have a lot of friends and neighbors here in CO that have not been able to get a reservation or are only able to get a day or two. That completely flies in the face of the promises that were made by VR this summer when they were pushing everyone to buy our Epic Passes. In email after email they assured everyone we would be able to ski almost any day we want and said it would be a rare exception if there were days that became full. I was personally on the fence about getting Epic this year or getting a much, much cheaper pass at one of the smaller mountains since I had no idea if Vail was going to be able to come through and make Epic worth the much higher cost.

While I agree many of the people whining are probably the same people that would whine about something else if the resorts were open as normal; I definitely know quite a few people that went ahead and purchased an Epic Pass based on the assurances VR made that they would be able to ski whenever they wanted to ski, with very rare exceptions.

 

[Green08]

There are definitely some oddities with the waiting room. My wife and I both both accessed the site at 12:58 (waiting room opens at 1:00) and were put in the waiting room at exactly 1:00. At 2:00 we were both given our place in line. My wife was given a spot in the 8,000s and I was given a spot in the 50,000s. Since our epic passes are linked, my wife was able to get on to reserve our Thanksgiving holiday days. When it became my turn, 2 of the 4 days we booked were already full.

I don't know what the right answer is, and I know VR is trying, but I have a lot of friends and neighbors here in CO that have not been able to get a reservation or are only able to get a day or two. That completely flies in the face of the promises that were made by VR this summer when they were pushing everyone to buy our Epic Passes. In email after email they assured everyone we would be able to ski almost any day we want and said it would be a rare exception if there were days that became full. I was personally on the fence about getting Epic this year or getting a much, much cheaper pass at one of the smaller mountains since I had no idea if Vail was going to be able to come through and make Epic worth the much higher cost.

While I agree many of the people whining are probably the same people that would whine about something else if the resorts were open as normal; I definitely know quite a few people that went ahead and purchased an Epic Pass based on the assurances VR made that they would be able to ski whenever they wanted to ski, with very rare exceptions.

marketing is not the legal disclaimer.

It would also be interesting to see what the breakdown of pass holders is for people who make key trips for a total of 6-8 days. And those who are local skiers and heavy users. It is the avid skier (SkiTalk types) who are going to face the most frequent hurdles with Vail I think

The Pass insurance does have some refund options if folks can’t get the days they want before Dec 7

 

[TDCSPRINGS]

marketing is not the legal disclaimer.

Oh yes I agree but one of the problems we faced is we didn't know exactly how the system would work, but we had to make pass decisions or pay higher prices later down the road. They are a corporation driven by profits so I get it, I also know a lot of promises were made that are definitely not going to be kept.

 

[raytseng]

i got a bunch of emails too and i did not see any Assurances of what you and your friends interpreted. Prove me wrong but I think if you go back and reread all the marketing you and your friends may have just assumed what they wanted to read, but no real promises that you would "ski almost every day you wanted to"

At best it was terminology like "exclusive access" and "unlock the season" or unlock winter but how I interpreted this was you are locked out if you don't buy not that you get to ski every day you want.

"Exclusive" i can see how that might be tricky, but Ive been worn down by this marketting term enough to know it is only as good as how difficult the status is to obtain. Even my safeway clubcard gets me "exclusive offers" and my chase credit card gets me "exclusive access" to concert ans artists. I dont think I'm really going to get a vip private concert set aside just for me because I have a chase credit card.
In this case epic exclusive access is only as exclusive as the other million other passholders which means things are still going to be very competitive.

I think in this forum we were saying epicpass is only going to get you 7 days, and even kicking around the concept if you wanted true assurance of more than 7 you might need to double up and buy 2 passes to get 14 or doubleup with ikon or an independent.

Anyway I dont mean to dump on your disappointment and kick you while you're down, but I'm just not seeing real misleading marketting and emails that made those promises that you will get to ski almost every day you wanted. So it may have worked if people are reading into something that wasn't really there. Please prove me wrong if you want to post the exact wordings to dissect and discuss more

 

[Wendy]

I don’t FB either, anymore. But I know how to access a resort’s website to find information. And I do believe that VR and others still communicated with pass holders and potential passholders via email, as they sent me notification of their changes.

That said, some of the comments on that FB post were from PC locals. It seems that they couldn’t get the reservations they wanted using the system and were pissed that VR had promised that people could get the days they wanted (barring holidays) and people bought passes based upon that expectation. So, throwing out the group of people who were whining just to whine, or just clueless, it does seem as if there’s a legitimate gripe. Maybe the reservations issue was specific to PCMR, who knows.

EDIT: If this is just an early season WROD issue than it’s not that big of a deal.

I do know that I wouldn’t like to deal with the reservations system, though many here say it’s fine. So I’m glad that I’m sticking to small local areas this year. Hope this all works out for everyone involved.

 

[Rich McP]

That completely flies in the face of the promises that were made by VR this summer when they were pushing everyone to buy our Epic Passes. In email after email they assured everyone we would be able to ski almost any day we want and said it would be a rare exception if there were days that became full.

I definitely know quite a few people that went ahead and purchased an Epic Pass based on the assurances VR made that they would be able to ski whenever they wanted to ski, with very rare exceptions.

I think you are not considering that you are relating early season WROD conditions. Yes, you have quoted the marketing correctly, but I think it is unrealistic to think that a company can limit access at this time of the season and not be blocking out folks. I think that is simply one of the realities of our situation rather than a failure. To me the failure would be for someone to take what was said as a guarantee instead of a hope. I read all that came out and decided to read it as a hope, knowing full well that plenty of people would necessarily be blocked out. Unfortunate, but reality.

 

[Wendy]

i got a bunch of emails too and i did not see any Assurances of what you and your friends interpreted. Prove me wrong but I think if you go back and reread all the marketing you and your friends may have just assumed what they wanted to read, but no real promises that you would "ski almost every day you wanted to"

At best it was terminology like "exclusive access" and "unlock the season" or unlock winter but how I interpreted this was you are locked out if you don't buy not that you get to ski every day you want.

"Exclusive" i can see how that might be tricky, but Ive been warn down by this marketting term to know it is only as good as how difficult the status is to obtain. Even my safeway clubcard gets me "exclusive offers" and my chase credit card gets me "exclusive access" to concert tickets. In this case its only as exclusive as the other million other passholders which means things are still going to be very competitive.

I think in this forum we were saying epicpass is only going to get you 7 days, and even kicking around the concept if you wanted true assurance of more than 7 you might need to double up and buy 2 passes to get 14 or doubleup with ikon or an independent.

Anyway I dont mean to dump on your disappointment and kick you while you're down, but I'm just not seeing real misleading marketting and emails that made those promises that you are talkimg about that you will ski almosr every day you wanted, other than people reading into something wasn't really there. please prove me wrong if you go back and find these promises and want to discuss more

IDK, I got the impression from VR emails that they were trying to assure passholders that the reservations system wouldn‘t be restrictive and pass holders would be able to get most of the days they wanted. I don’t have a marketing background, but a skier shouldn’t need a marketing (or legal) background to accurately read disseminated information.

 

[Rich McP]

I also know a lot of promises were made that are definitely not going to be kept.

What promises. I understand what you guys are saying, but I don't recall promises.

 

[raytseng]

I get your point but lets bring in the actual text and email if that is the crux of the discussion.

I'm putting out there that people are misremembering these emails and just remembering what they want to remember, clouded by their own hopes and expectations.
at worst we can point out how the marketing trick worked to cause people to misremember or assume a promise that never was promised. or point out aha this email truly was misleading

 

[EricG]

IDK, I got the impression from VR emails that they were trying to assure passholders that the reservations system wouldn‘t be restrictive and pass holders would be able to get most of the days they wanted. I don’t have a marketing background, but a skier shouldn’t need a marketing (or legal) background to accurately read disseminated information.

People want to twist words from the actual intent to what they want to hear.. There was never a promise in the emails, VR isn’t stupid! Most people should have been aware of an existing pandemic and that things would be different, but when push comes to shove, people fall back on the ME, ME, ME mentality.

 

[TDCSPRINGS]

I'm not going to dig months back in my deleted items, but I completely disagree. Here is one example from an email just a few weeks ago

"Holding any Epic Pass product will get you early access to reservations, exclusive early season skiing, and perks like Epic Mountain Rewards and Epic Coverage. This is your last chance to secure yours before Pass Holder reservations begin!"

Should we not take that to mean we will have access and exclusive skiing? I understand it isn't perfect and Vail is trying, but they absolutely led people to believe they would be able to ski most of the time they wanted with a few exceptions

 

[raytseng]

I get it,
I commented already on "exclusive" and "lock in winter" and those terms in marketing. If you heard what you wanted to hear from those terms to mean a promise for full normal season access, I understand; but I disagree with your "absolutely led" interpretation, and put it at least 50/50 on consumer awareness.

I also get that they didn't straight out disclose , "Don't buy a pass, the season potentially is going to be be crowded and you will get locked out on days, save your money"; and dissuade people from buying a pass. But I don't think you can expect any company to trash on their own products either versus putting them in the best light.

 

[Green08]

Oh yes I agree but one of the problems we faced is we didn't know exactly how the system would work, but we had to make pass decisions or pay higher prices later down the road. They are a corporation driven by profits so I get it, I also know a lot of promises were made that are definitely not going to be kept.

With you all the way. I still am waiting to find out how a $440 credit for a Family Freedom Pack at Keystone can be used

 

[Green08]

I get it,
I commented already on "exclusive" and "lock in winter" and those terms in marketing. If you heard what you wanted to hear from those terms to mean a promise for full normal season access, I understand; but I disagree with your "absolutely led" interpretation, and put it at least 50/50 on consumer awareness.

I also get that they didn't straight out disclose , "Don't buy a pass, the season potentially is going to be be crowded and you will get locked out on days, save your money"; and dissuade people from buying a pass. But I don't think you can expect any company to trash on their own products either versus putting them in the best light.

Vail is also pretty smart about marketing. I think between the pass discounts and then the 7 day priority access they will have covered the bases for so many of their high value clientele.

It is people who didn’t take the extra step to read into the details, or power users like us, who will get lost in the shuffle.

The alternate route was a X Days guarantee like Loveland. But with 60 days in a potential April and May, and 20 days in November—they are really just promising 50 of the 120 days in the core season of Dec-March, or a month and A half

 

[Jersey Skier]

I get your point but lets bring in the actual text and email if that is the crux of the discussion.

I'm putting out there that people are misremembering these emails and just remembering what they want to remember, clouded by their own hopes and expectations.
at worst we can point out how the marketing trick worked to cause people to misremember or assume a promise that never was promised. or point out aha this email truly was misleading

Letter from Our CEO​

Quick Summary​

For your safety, we will be managing how many people are on our mountains this season and implementing a pass holder reservation system. Reservations will be required to access our mountains. For the vast majority of days, we anticipate our mountains will be able to accommodate everyone who wants to ski or ride at our resorts.