A Peak Into Reservation System/VR SNAFUS

[TDCSPRINGS]

Reservations will be required to access our mountains. For the vast majority of days, we anticipate our mountains will be able to accommodate everyone who wants to ski or ride at our resorts

This is where people are frustrated. For a vast majority of the days so far many people are not able to even make reservations. I think people understood they would have to make reservations, but they didn't know capacity would be so limited that 15 minutes after reservations open that most of the days would be booked before they even got to their place in line to try to make the reservation.

 

[AmyPJ]

Reservations will be required to access our mountains. For the vast majority of days, we anticipate our mountains will be able to accommodate everyone who wants to ski or ride at our resorts

This is where people are frustrated. For a vast majority of the days so far many people are not able to even make reservations. I think people understood they would have to make reservations, but they didn't know capacity would be so limited that 15 minutes after reservations open that most of the days would be booked before they even got to their place in line to try to make the reservation.

I agree with you. I feel like this process could have been handled differently, although I don't know how.
Big Sky put out a really well-produced video today outlining their procedures.

 

[Wendy]

People want to twist words from the actual intent to what they want to hear.. There was never a promise in the emails, VR isn’t stupid! Most people should have been aware of an existing pandemic and that things would be different, but when push comes to shove, people fall back on the ME, ME, ME mentality.

OK, wait. I read those emails as somebody who had no skin in the game, no hopes, no expectations, so therefore can’t be remembering what I “wanted to hear.” (I have no Epic pass nor was I planning on getting one). I was reading merely with curiosity to see how Vail was going to handle things. I’m not stupid nor was I thinking “me me me.” I completely understand why VR is doing what they are doing. I am just saying that it would be easy for the average person to believe that they would have an easier time reserving the days they want with this statement: “For the vast majority of days, we anticipate our mountains will be able to accommodate everyone who wants to ski or ride at our resorts.“ My logic made me skeptical when reading VR‘s emails and I was dubious whether a skier could actually reserve all the days they wanted.

I get the frustration with people that don’t take time to be informed, and for God’s sake I understand this is a pandemic, but in this case I also understand the frustration of some people with this system. If I was a local skiing a VR this season, I think I’d pass on the Epic pass and chose another winter sport or go to a smaller ski area.

Let’s put this another way: Say you are a local. (And that’s plenty of you reading this). You’ve been a skier at PCMR or some other VR area for years. You often can take a weekday and sneak up when work is slow. And now you find that you can’t ski when you want, because all the dates were booked by the time your number came up in the waiting room. Meanwhile, some others, probably many from out of town, just happened to get lucky with their place in the waiting room line and have tickets. So here we are in a pandemic when people shouldn’t be traveling all that much and the locals have difficulty skiing locally, and someone from out of town got a reservation so now they’re traveling in from God knows where. And I don’t believe for a minute that avid local skiers weren’t paying attention to the reservations process.

I don’t have the answer to the problem, but I understand the frustration from the point of locals here.

 

[TDCSPRINGS]

OK, wait. I read those emails as somebody who had no skin in the game, no hopes, no expectations, so therefore can’t be remembering what I “wanted to hear.” (I have no Epic pass nor was I planning on getting one). I was reading merely with curiosity to see how Vail was going to handle things. I’m not stupid nor was I thinking “me me me.” I completely understand why VR is doing what they are doing. I am just saying that it would be easy for the average person to believe that they would have an easier time reserving the days they want with this statement: “For the vast majority of days, we anticipate our mountains will be able to accommodate everyone who wants to ski or ride at our resorts.“ My logic made me skeptical when reading VR‘s emails and I was dubious whether a skier could actually reserve all the days they wanted.

I get the frustration with people that don’t take time to be informed, and for God’s sake I understand this is a pandemic, but in this case I also understand the frustration of some people with this system. If I was a local skiing a VR this season, I think I’d pass on the Epic pass and chose another winter sport or go to a smaller ski area.

Let’s put this another way: Say you are a local. (And that’s plenty of you reading this). You’ve been a skier at PCMR or some other VR area for years. You often can take a weekday and sneak up when work is slow. And now you find that you can’t ski when you want, because all the dates were booked by the time your number came up in the waiting room. Meanwhile, some others, probably many from out of town, just happened to get lucky with their place in the waiting room line and have tickets. So here we are in a pandemic when people shouldn’t be traveling all that much and the locals have difficulty skiing locally, and someone from out of town got a reservation so now they’re traveling in from God knows where. And I don’t believe for a minute that avid local skiers weren’t paying attention to the reservations process.

I don’t have the answer to the problem, but I understand the frustration from the point of locals here.

I don't think I have seen anyone explain the issue and concerns more clearly or eloquently than this.

 

[TDCSPRINGS]

Yes, we understand this year is different, but when VR sends emails 2-3 times a week saying "buy now, you will be able to ski nearly anytime you want", and it ends up you can't even get a reservation, that is the frustration. A lot of Colorado locals ski hard early, stay away or go small mountains mid-December to midl/late-January when the the Vails, Brecks, etc are swamped with visitors, and then hit it hard late January through spring. Everyone knows this year is different, but VR also marketed their $1200 pass on the basis that with a few exceptions you could ski when you wanted.

I personally debated back and forth on renewing Epic, going small (Loveland, Monarch, Cooper or A-Basin) or buying Ikon Pass, which will not require reservations at all. Vails assurances that I would be able to ski most any days I wanted kept me in the Epic camp. My experience is fairly similar to most Coloradoans I know as well. Knowing what I know now based on the very limited availability of reservations, I probably would have gone Ikon or Loveland.

 

[TDCSPRINGS]

Sorry to keep harping on this, but the more I reflect on how I made the decision on my pass this year, the more I remember of what influenced me.

I think it is important to understand the context and competition VR was addressing when they sent these emails. This summer in CO I was inundated with emails, letters and advertisements (print, radio and TV) from both Ikon and Epic. Iikon made the decision they would not require reservations and were hyping this as an advantage to Epic. In response, Epic started sending marketing emails and advertisemts stating, yes, reservations would be required, but "For the vast majority of days, we anticipate our mountains will be able to accommodate everyone who wants to ski or ride at our resorts.

It wasn't an accident VR was pushing this idea that with a few exceptions you would be able to ski when you wanted, it was completely their response to Ikon trying to draw Epic customers away over fears that eservation requirements might limit Epic Pass holders ability to ski most days they wanted.

Context definitely matters in this case. I know at least a dozen families that had the debate over which pass to get when normally the state is divided between renewing Epic or Ikon (with a few exceptions for smaller mountains). I know 3 families that chose Ikon for the specific reason they did not require reservations. I know 2 that went Monarch (small mountain) and the rest went Epic based on the idea they could ski most days they wanted.

I totally agree people will complain about most anything, but some of these posts I have seen accusing people of only seeing what they wanted to see or people twisting marketing to what they wanted to hear are pretty unfair.

 

[tball]

Here's the bottom line from the CEO. Is it a promise?

 

[TDCSPRINGS]

I think I am the one that ineloquently threw out the word promise. I think the more appropriate term is assurance.

For those not in CO, you can split the state between Epic and Ikon holders. Maybe it is this way in other places, but definitely in the CO front range when you meet another skier for the first time, you almost always ask "Epic or Ikon?".

I think people here really thought about this decision and trusted many of the assurances they were being given via email, tv ads, billboards, etc and they are now feeling VR in particular is not living up to the commitments they felt they were given to convince them to choose Epic over Ikon.

But if you think this debate is bad, just wait until Gov Polis shuts the whole season down again. Last year Epic gave credits for this season but Ikon did nothing that I am aware of to compensate pass holders who didn't get many, if any, days in. After 3 days at Keystone, A-Basin and Loveland this year, and the massive spike in CO Covid cases, I am fairly certain he will shut it all down soon. Hopefully cases decline and I am wrong, but it's not looking good right now.

 

[David Chaus]

Just a point of clarification, while Ikon stated they wouldn’t require reservations, in fact several individual resorts are requiring them, and not just affiliated resorts like Jackson or Aspen. Crystal Mt (WA), owned by Alterra, is currently requiring reservations, which is done though the Ikon website or on the Ikon app. Reservations for Saturdays in December are full, as well as for the Friday and Sunday after Thanksgiving, though Thanksgiving day had available reservations. So I’m going skiing on Thanksgiving, and I will be very thankful for it. I’m pretty much going to avoid weekends anyway.

The need for reservations in this case is a response to restrictions that are currently in place in WA state, so regardless of what Alterra promised (assured?) when the passes were sold, the circumstances in a given region or state dictate what actually happens. The reservation system is in place and can be activated for any Ikon pass resort.

WA state is maybe an usual situation, in which these are not destination resorts that attract many “travel to ski” visitors, unlike CO and UT resorts. It’s mostly locals, who are motivated to play by the rules and keep a good thing going if we can. Crystal is on Ikon, as is Summit at Snoqualmie ( a Boyne resort), and Stevens is on Epic. The other places in the state like Mt Baker are independently owned.

 

[TDCSPRINGS]

Ikon marketed they were not requiring reservations for the mountains it owns. Affiliate resorts are totally different. For example, with Epic you can ski Telluride, but that isn't a Vail Resort. Same with Ikon - they own a number of resorts and have affiliate resorts you can use a pass at. I think most of us are talking about VR and Ikon owned properties and not affiliates, and more importantly, discussing what was marketed to get us to buy each pass over the summer.

"Vail/Epic unveiled its plans first, stipulating that reservations not only would reservations be required to secure entry times and lift spots for Epic Pass holders at its flagship resorts during busier times—holidays and weekend—but also that for many of these days, single-day lift tickets would be unavailable. That, of course, pushed skiers planning to hit Vail over Christmas into must-buy mode when it comes to some form of the Epic Pass.

Ikon saw an opportunity here. So it announced that Ikon Pass holders would require no reservations to ski the mountains it owns, such as Steamboat, Winter Park, Mammoth and Squaw Valley"

 

[TDCSPRINGS]

I would also add that my frame of reference is Colorado and what we were told. I fully expect marketing and assurances may be completely different in other states/areas.

 

[PinnacleJim]

Like the other POWDR resorts, Killington went with a parking reservation system. Yesterday was opening day and it worked well. Skiing was limited to passholders, but there was no problem getting a reservation. Even with limited terrain.

Some things to understand. You need a parking reservation to get to drop off areas, so Uber or Lift won't get around the system. No reservation needed for the shuttle buses. Not clear if illegal parking at condos to ride the shuttles will become a problem on busy days.

 

[mikel]

Question Jim. Was Killington open to all passholders? Killington and Ikon? Just curious. The other stuff you mention about the parking is the same for Copper. Is Killington also using the QR code and your license plate? As the system is right now you could park in Frisco and take the bus in.

Things are in a state of flux here. With CO still being a county by county thing who knows what will happen. Summit added more restrictions on numbers so each place has to resubmit plans.

 

[slowrider]

At our local resort - Mt Bachelor - the resort's new parking reservation system is ruffling a lot of feathers.

https://www.mtbachelor.com/plan-your-trip/getting-here/parking-reservations

An online petition on change.org has been launched to focus customer concerns.

https://www.change.org/p/mt-bachelor-establish-a-fair-parking-reservation-system-at-mt-bachelor

From what I can tell so far, the main gripes fall into three categories:

1) Outplay 365 pass holders seem to get prioroty:

Outplay 365 is a year round pass that covers summer-winter Ops and is pricier than just a winter season pass. Apparently, policy dictates that Outplay 365 pass holders do not need to reserve a parking space during this ski season. This REALLY rankles some long-time ski season pass holders.​

2) Loopholes in the parking reservation policy:

No controls on people riding the shuttle buses to the resort. Basically: ride the suttle to the resort, get dropped off, boot up & ski. But many folks don't see the bus ride as part of valid covid-safe policies.​

​

No controls if people drive skiers to the mountain and drop them off. Similar deal as with the shuttle bus. I could foresee an immediate local Uber specialty service emerging around this - especially on big powder days. I could also see groups of friends cramming into a buddie's van to get dropped off (again, not exactly covid-safe).​

​

[My opinion: If the shuttle bus and other "drop off" forms of transportation to the resort really become popular this season, that would seem to negate the whole idea behind the parking reservation system to control the number of folks on the mountain in a reliable/trackable way.]​

3) Weekend skiers are particularly at a disadvantage in all of this:

Reading the comments on the petition site & elsewhere, a number of weekend warriors have already found all weekend parking slots booked through Feb (that's as of 11/18/2020).​

Also:
Despite Mt Bachelor doing a reasonable job communicating operations changes this year, I expect there will still be folks traveling here to ski that will be confused/surprised by things - and some will have their ski days negatively impacted somehow.

Me? I'm sitting back with some pop corn & watching how the season & pandemic plays out through March. Hoping things will work out & settle down by March & I can get a lot of spring laps in.

Ride the COVID EXPRESS. I've got a couple of spots up for bid. ;-)
Hoodoo is first come & the lodge is closed. NASCAR @ 0800 on snowpack up Santiam. Scary

 

[PinnacleJim]

Question Jim. Was Killington open to all passholders? Killington and Ikon? Just curious. The other stuff you mention about the parking is the same for Copper. Is Killington also using the QR code and your license plate? As the system is right now you could park in Frisco and take the bus in.

Yes, Killington is open this weekend to both Killington and Ikon passholders. No day tickets being sold until Monday. And yes, they are using the Parkwhiz app which shows a QR code and license plate number for your reservation. I am sure this is a corporate decision from POWDR as Copper, Eldora and Bachelor all seem to have the same system.

 

[Wendy]

Sorry to keep harping on this, but the more I reflect on how I made the decision on my pass this year, the more I remember of what influenced me.

I think it is important to understand the context and competition VR was addressing when they sent these emails. This summer in CO I was inundated with emails, letters and advertisements (print, radio and TV) from both Ikon and Epic. Iikon made the decision they would not require reservations and were hyping this as an advantage to Epic. In response, Epic started sending marketing emails and advertisemts stating, yes, reservations would be required, but "For the vast majority of days, we anticipate our mountains will be able to accommodate everyone who wants to ski or ride at our resorts.

It wasn't an accident VR was pushing this idea that with a few exceptions you would be able to ski when you wanted, it was completely their response to Ikon trying to draw Epic customers away over fears that eservation requirements might limit Epic Pass holders ability to ski most days they wanted.

Context definitely matters in this case. I know at least a dozen families that had the debate over which pass to get when normally the state is divided between renewing Epic or Ikon (with a few exceptions for smaller mountains). I know 3 families that chose Ikon for the specific reason they did not require reservations. I know 2 that went Monarch (small mountain) and the rest went Epic based on the idea they could ski most days they wanted.

I totally agree people will complain about most anything, but some of these posts I have seen accusing people of only seeing what they wanted to see or people twisting marketing to what they wanted to hear are pretty unfair.

I get multiple emails from Epic, too, because I used to have a pass at a local area now owned by VR. I get these emails encouraging me to get my pass at least once a week. Just today, I got an email urging me to get my Epic pass before prices go up tomorrow. So they’re pushing sales pretty hard.

 

[Tricia]

I agree with you. I feel like this process could have been handled differently, although I don't know how.
Big Sky put out a really well-produced video today outlining their procedures.

Phil and I talked about the Epic Mix app and how this process could work well on the app.
They can tell if you're on the mountain or if there is a spot open for someone else to come ski.

 

[Tricia]

For those not in CO, you can split the state between Epic and Ikon holders. Maybe it is this way in other places, but definitely in the CO front range when you meet another skier for the first time, you almost always ask "Epic or Ikon?".

Its the same way out here in Tahoe.
Epic = Northstar Heavenly Kirkwood
IKON = Squaw/Alpine Mammoth

Utah has ParkCity/Canyons on Epic but otherwise is IKON strong.

Then there are the local hills like Mt Rose, Diamond Peak, Sierra at Tahoe, Sugarbowl

 

[TDCSPRINGS]

We are pretty lucky to have some good local mountains here as well. We basically ski the local mountains on holidays and mid-December to mid-January. Loveland and ABasin remain two of my favorite mountains.

I think most people probably know about the Gems Card, but if not, and you want to ski the local CO mountains, look up the Colorado Gems Card. It's $35 and gets you two for one at 8 local "gems" like Loveland, Monarch, A-Basin, etc. We use this card a lot when the Epic mountains are crowded.

 

[raytseng]

If you saved 1 priority reservation day you can still pull the ripcord and execute the refund option and undo your epicpass purchase as a couple core days in December are now unavailable at a few resortsm
And then you can switch to ikon as that is still on sale, if truly the grass looks greener to you on the other side and you felt vail did you wrong.