Budget Boot for Expert Skier

[Rich_Ease_3051]

Is this information available? Where can I find it? Asking for ski boots, by the way.

Have no idea. I reckon it's in an industry insider pdf somewhere. Sort of like how the pdf of all the marker bindings is leaked somewhere:

https://www.ajmotionsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/marker_tech_manual_20202021.pdf

The specs for race boots, this head model for example, says what last number it is on the head website. But no mention if this is a new last or same last as previous season. It would be useful for someone who bought last season's or two season's ago's 96 last, for example, to know that the current 96 last is the same. That way, they can just buy the new model online, knowing it would fit more or less the same as it used the same 96 last.

RAPTOR WCR 140S

The Raptor WCR 140S has a new level of absorption capabilities. With a 96-mm last and Race Balance, this boot allows skiers to remain centered and recover easier.

www.head.com

I think it would just come down to experience and fitting the boots and getting a feel for what feels good on your feet. Then cross check that feel with the last number.

Also, although different manufacturers use different lasts molds and may also use different molds even with the same last number within the same manufacturer (new mold for new season for example), I think they more or less coalesce to the same measurements. This is just my guess. The reason being they probably use the same database of average feet measurements. Also lots of copying in the industry. Let's take high volume boots. The day one boot manufacturer came out with the first high volume boots, the other manufacturers wouldn't want to miss out on the new market and produced their own, but probably using the same database. It's just a matter of one manufacturer having a bit wider forefoot or higher instep or tighter heel, but the shape of the 102 lasts, for example are more or less the same.

 

[Cheizz]

The last width is what you are referring to. It is a measurement in mm at the widest point of the forefoot. It is not a specific Last ID. Most brands publish those these days, at least for the featured size (26.5 for men, 25.5 for women's boots). With every full mondo size up, the last width increases by 2 mm; with every size down from the featured size, the last width decreases by 2 mm.

 

[Rich_Ease_3051]

The last width is what you are referring to. It is a measurement in mm at the widest point of the forefoot. It is not a specific Last ID. Most brands publish those these days, at least for the featured size (26.5 for men, 25.5 for women's boots). With every full mondo size up, the last width increases by 2 mm; with every size down from the featured size, the last width decreases by 2 mm.

Yes but there's also the width of the heel and the height of the instep and the width of the toe box, which is not published and varies by manufacturer to some degrees. It may also vary within the same manufacturer. For example, they may decide to make the heel tighter of a high volume boot if they get complaints or feedback that it's too loose. So this year's 102 last might have a, I don't know, 75 mm heel compared to last years 80mm heel. Just as an example.

 

[Rich_Ease_3051]

The last width is what you are referring to. It is a measurement in mm at the widest point of the forefoot. It is not a specific Last ID. Most brands publish those these days, at least for the featured size (26.5 for men, 25.5 for women's boots). With every full mondo size up, the last width increases by 2 mm; with every size down from the featured size, the last width decreases by 2 mm.

Actually correction you are correct. That is the width. This is the last info that I should have posted

RAPTOR WCR 140S

The Raptor WCR 140S has a new level of absorption capabilities. With a 96-mm last and Race Balance, this boot allows skiers to remain centered and recover easier.

www.head.com

 

[Cheizz]

That info is what I meant, exactly. But it is rarely published.

Frankly, I trust my bootfitter to know what the specific shape characteristics of specific boots are. For me to have that information would only be relevant if I were to go online shopping for ski boots blindly (without fitting). Every three seasons or so, I am up for new boots. Fitting different models together with a bootfitter that I trust is all part of the process. I have never had two identical boots - or requirement lists, for that matter - in a row. So fitting for new boots is always necessary.

If I were a bootfitter myself, I would definitely like to know if a boot is built exactly on the same last as the previous season's version. But I think that information (whether it has changed) IS available.

 

[Cheizz]

Actually correction you are correct. That is the width. This is the last info that I should have posted

RAPTOR WCR 140S

The Raptor WCR 140S has a new level of absorption capabilities. With a 96-mm last and Race Balance, this boot allows skiers to remain centered and recover easier.

www.head.com

View attachment 175302

This info - "RS 1800cc" still doesn't say anything about the heel pocket width etc.

 

[Rich_Ease_3051]

This info - "RS 1800cc" still doesn't say anything about the heel pocket width etc.

Yes that is the challenge with ski boots. With running shoes, there are many reviewers who dissect everything about the shoes, from feel to measurement to quality. Actually that is how I learned about the particular Altra lasts that suited my feet-the reviewers mentioned the last number.

With ski boots, because it's a one-off purchase that is dependent on boot fitter knowledge, we're sort of kept in the dark. And it shouldn't be, because it's a mold. It's the easiest thing in the world to measure a plastic borne out of a mold. The measurement for the first boot cast from the mold is the same measurement as the last boot out of the production line, down to the millimetre.

Maybe ski boots reviewers couldn't just be bothered. After all, it's just a caliper measurement.


I don't think the industry is being nefarious though. It's just the way it is. A ski boot purchase is time consuming (compared to running shoes) and costly and it's better to rely on boot fitter knowledge.

 

[Rich_Ease_3051]

@Cheizz, issuu.com might be a good website to find industry pdf's. This one shows Full Tilt boots for example.

Full Tilt Boots 2020 / 2021 Catalog

Read Full Tilt Boots 2020 / 2021 Catalog by Full Tilt Boots on Issuu and browse thousands of other publications on our platform. Start here!

issuu.com

Still doesn't show other measurements apart from general width. Maybe it's like a proprietary, intellectual property thing. Let's say some boot manufacturer just released a new boot out of a new mold and it's proven popular with the skiing public, I would understand if they wouldn't want to tell what heel pocket or instep measurement or toe width they used to their competitors.

​

 

[fatbob]

I see no reason that the industry couldn't publish some basic measurements of their lasts other than commercial sensivity ( but really not hard for a manufacturer to purchase a competitor's boot and saw it apart to discover measurements). So the reason must be to preserve the role of the retailer and keep a bit of mystique around their brands. Which is a little laughable when we consider the volume done through regular/generic retail vs dedicated bootfitters.

 

[Rich_Ease_3051]

I see no reason that the industry couldn't publish some basic measurements of their lasts other than commercial sensivity ( but really not hard for a manufacturer to purchase a competitor's boot and saw it apart to discover measurements). So the reason must be to preserve the role of the retailer and keep a bit of mystique around their brands. Which is a little laughable when we consider the volume done through regular/generic retail vs dedicated bootfitters.

Yes there is some room for ski boot reviewers to take reviews to the next level. The ski boot review industry is still retail merchant driven, unlike skis.

If ski boot reviewers were like running shoe reviewers, they would bust out the calipers and give us measurements the minute a boot is released.

I don't think it's out of laziness or collusion with the manufacturers though. Maybe it's not worth reviewing ski boots to the degree that running shoes are reviewed because we don't buy that many. We just buy just one boot and use that for a few years. And we still need the assistance of boot fitters for other things, like punching and heat molding, so it doesn't matter if we know the measurements. The process is still boot fitter driven, unlike running shoes that you can use out of the box.

 

[Cheizz]

I think ski boot reviews don't have any value for consumers. Since fit is by far the most important factor in ski boot selection, and since fit is so very personal - what's there to review besides the obvious specs? Sure, based on your requirements (flex, boot sole type, last width) you can make a list. But every brand will probably be on there, since every brand has a 98 mm 130 flex ski boot with alpine and with GripWalk sole. Even with tech-inserts, every major brand has an option.
So the final factor will - as always - be the fit. And that is something one could describe, but not really review/judge.

 

[Uncle-A]

Is this information available? Where can I find it? Asking for ski boots, by the way.

It is out there but you have to dig it up, not always the easiest thing to find.

 

[Rich_Ease_3051]

I think ski boot reviews don't have any value for consumers. Since fit is by far the most important factor in ski boot selection, and since fit is so very personal - what's there to review besides the obvious specs? Sure, based on your requirements (flex, boot sole type, last width) you can make a list. But every brand will probably be on there, since every brand has a 98 mm 130 flex ski boot with alpine and with GripWalk sole. Even with tech-inserts, every major brand has an option.
So the final factor will - as always - be the fit. And that is something one could describe, but not really review/judge.

Yes and there's also the volume of the ankle space and other pockets of air to fill. There's differing technologies on how this is filled whether it's Head's wax or intuition foam or zipfit cork and the other god knows how many other materials out there. It would be very hard to put an objective measurement to which of these materials is best. Only bootfitter knows best (to newbies anyway).

Then there's also the cost centre aspect to providing boots to reviewers.

With running shoes, Nike or Altra or Hoka or any of the running companies don't have any hesitation giving free shoe samples to the Ginger Runner or any of the 10's or maybe hundreds of reviewers out there, whether it's print or YouTube. A running shoe only costs a few dollars to make (thanks to Chinese and Vietnamese cheap labour) so they can give them away and recoup that cost when we buy the same shoe for $200. While a ski boot mold is already in the tens of thousands and the boot itself costs hundreds. They cannot exactly give them away for review. Their racing sponsorships, which I guess is their main advertising cost centre, already costs them money. I don't think there's room to give the boots away to YouTube or Insta reviewers and influencers. And we all know free samples is the only viable way to review boots. I don't think there's a dedicated ski boot reviewer out there willing to buy boots out of pocket for tens of thousands of dollars and give us an objective review. There's no way for them to recoup this cost.

 

[Uncle-A]

I think knowing what last was used on a particular model is also valuable knowledge, if we can just circle back to OP's original question.

I sort of have this experience with running shoes. When I went all Altra, I wondered why some models felt more snug while others had slippy heels and tight midfoots. And it's all to do with the last that's used to create a model.

When I learned which lasts suited my foot best, I had the confidence to buy online as long as I looked up or researched the particular last used on a model. Used the last knowledge to buy different types (running (road and trail), casual wear, boots, etc) and always had a good fit.

I don't have this knowledge yet with ski boots, but it should be similar or even more applicable as they are injection molded, so there should be less variability vs a shoe last.

I just know 102 last doesn't suit me anymore. It was ok when I was a beginner, but as soon as I wanted more twitchiness and responsiveness, it didn't matter that I went down one size. I've yet to find the ski boot last that'll work for me. Maybe the 96/97 lasts. We'll see.

Like I have said, it is a learned skill and it sounds like you want to learn. I have wide feet and in order to get a good fit I went out of my way to learn. It was one of the reasons I was able to get a job selling ski equipment. The shop owners asked if I knew how to fit boots. The first shop I worked was a Fischer and Head ski dealer, Look bindings and Lange boots were their main products, at the time coincidentally I was skiing on Fischer skis, Look bindings and Lange boots. But I had done a lot of research to find that the Lange was the boot for me. It was the start of my 18 years in the business just learning what boot was the best for me.

 

[Lauren]

Yes there is some room for ski boot reviewers to take reviews to the next level. The ski boot review industry is still retail merchant driven, unlike skis.

America’s Best Bootfitters has the best reviews out there for boots, IMO. Not quite on the same level as what you describe for running shoes, but great high-level feedback describing fit and performance of boots.

Reviews | America’s Best Bootfitters

bootfitters.com

 

[KingGrump]

One of the pitfall of shopping online is some unscrupulous vendor will often send you bogus made in China products.

Does your "easy" button looks like this?

Yup, you got the knock off.

My "easy" button looks like this. Works much better than the knock off.


I used the ""easy" button every time I wanted/needed a pair of ski boot. That would be every two season or 250 ski days, Sometimes sooner if the boot breaks.
I walk into the ski shop and simply say, "Gary, I need a new pair of boots.". Voila, it's done. No muss, no fuss. Just a simple light touch of the "easy" button.

Life is funny. It could be easy or hard. All depends on how badly YOU want to f* it up.

 

[Philpug]

There are so many aspects that go into the fit of the boot past just last or even volume and that is the liner and how that is built and the volume that takes up but moreso the foot and how the bone structure is and soft tissue. All of these numbers a just initial points of reference and general ones at that.

 

[In2h2o]

Most brands publish those these days, at least for the featured size (26.5 for men, 25.5 for women's boots). With every full mondo size up, the last width increases by 2 mm; with every size down from the featured size, the last width decreases by 2 mm.

Is the mondo "starting size" for last really different for men and women?
edit -assuming a plug boot starts at 26.5?

 

[markojp]

You're a fitter in the PNL. I am sure skiers have came in and argued/discussed with you their proper boot sizes based on the Evo chart.

Evo chart.
View attachment 175238

FWIW, maybe I'm blessed, but I've never had someone show this chart (or argue it) to me. I have had someone take a boot I was setting up for a client that was 'in progress' to another shop for what should have been a first met tweak and have the shop tell them their boot was to small. Thankfully the client didn't listen.

Also had an instructor with a very narrow foot in a boot a wee too large go to the shop where they purchased the boots complaining of navicular pain. They punched it without looking. They would have figured out quickly the instructor was banging around in an aircraft hanger, but mansplained their way to a 'solution'. Yes, I called the shop and spoke with them. Got it sorted, and the instructor now knows why they need a new boot. We'll sort that out in September.

 

[markojp]

Is the mondo "starting size" for last really different for men and women?
edit -assuming a plug boot starts at 26.5?

Plugs start at 22.5 and generally top out at 28.5.