Classic Techniques to Remind us where we came from, how far we have come

[Bad Bob]

Is fun to see the PJ Jones videos again. Taught with him winter of 69/70 at Bridger Bowl. It was the perfect blend to produce a skier like PJ. An Austrian Olympian for a director, a grad of the French academy, another from the Italian. Great mountain with quality snow and of course good beer. Right about the time when the equipment did a massive upgrade too, that did na ot hurt either. We were all exposed to several generations of different technical systems. You could see PJ emerging into the star he became.

A local joke about PJ (with a lot of truth) 'turn on a camera and PJ would jump off of anythingy '. PJ you are still one of my idols.

 

[geepers]

From the 'Episode Three' video:
"...... Feb 26, 2021
Warning: Old farts on skis, not suitable for younger viewers. In this episode, former coach of the Canadian National Ski Team, Glenn Wurtele (now almost 70!)....."

 

[Viking9]

You can’t ever get enough Chuck Conners !!
A Celtic and a Rifleman .

 

[Viking9]

Something I noticed about the kid in the video and myself is that we both exagerrate our left ski way more than our right ski when using independent leg action.
I’m pretty sure it has to do with being right legged and wanting to get back to the right leg so we can fart around with the left foot.

 

[RoninSkier]

From the 'Episode Three' video:
"...... Feb 26, 2021
Warning: Old farts on skis, not suitable for younger viewers. In this episode, former coach of the Canadian National Ski Team, Glenn Wurtele (now almost 70!)....."

Ahh a Cdn eh, explains why in his VDO he gives the middle finger with Cdn politeness.

 

[RiderRay]

The elegant (but sorta functional useless) reverse shoulder, legs clamped together, hip dump style of the great Stein Erikson -
View attachment 197303
In his later yrs using shaped skis his style changes to a more modern technique - but still using clamped together legs

And could still ski any terrain better with his feet locked together than anyone with their feet apart.

 

[RoninSkier]

Excellent find.

 

[RoninSkier]

Never have had a problem with it teaching adult beginners including first timers. Everyone's MMV.

IMHO, if i can't teach an adult beginner effectively, I have no business teaching experts.

Fundamentals, core motor function & muscle memory are everything - beginner to expert to high level racers.

 

[James]

Well, now you seem to have switched your position. And yes it does if you are advocating that the inside foot plays a role in pulling you into the turn.

No switching of positions. Just because there’s a focus on the inside ski doesn’t change the fact the outside does all the work in the turn. Ideally. We've talked about this for years.
The inside leg plays a huge role in getting you into the turn. Leave it long, the turn will be pivoted, low angle, with little weight on the outside. Shorten it and you can make higher edge angle round turns.

So you are talking rotary here and not carving? Try doing dynamic short radius wedge turns down a blue and then blend into parallel and let me know what leg is doing all the work in both stances.

Well the exercise of making quick round turns with the lower legs was on a chairlift. There’s not enough wind speed to push the skis by just tipping them.

Takao Maruyama skis similarly to the Korean skier you posted. He advocates rotary from the hips, pelvis!

He also advocates release from there. I don’t quite understand what he’s saying with that. But he says the sub talar joint is too loose, so he doesn’t start from there. Everything follows from the hip!
Some interesting material for the pipe.

About 1:20 and 4:05

As to the diverging inside ski, and in keeping with the history theme, Diverging Parallel used to be a stage in Psia’s Centerline model.

Barnes, Bob Encyclopedia of Skiing 3rd Ed, 1999

 

[geepers]

Excellent find.

Seems Wurtele takes a more laid back approach at 70! Hard to think of anything much more radical on skis than fireballing.

Much of Ski Tips for Old Farts was done at the mountain where I normally ski. Don't know him however believe he skis for Ski Adventures who run ski weeks and ski safaris at Silverstar, Sun Peaks and the Powder Highway.

 

[RoninSkier]

Got a chance to see the whole VDO..... the on fire jump .... the guy is nuts.
Perhaps the real origin of 'Crazy Canucks'.

 

[RoninSkier]

No switching of positions. Just because there’s a focus on the inside ski doesn’t change the fact the outside does all the work in the turn. Ideally. We've talked about this for years.
The inside leg plays a huge role in getting you into the turn. Leave it long, the turn will be pivoted, low angle, with little weight on the outside. Shorten it and you can make higher edge angle round turns.


Well the exercise of making quick round turns with the lower legs was on a chairlift. There’s not enough wind speed to push the skis by just tipping them.

Takao Maruyama skis similarly to the Korean skier you posted. He advocates rotary from the hips, pelvis!

He also advocates release from there. I don’t quite understand what he’s saying with that. But he says the sub talar joint is too loose, so he doesn’t start from there. Everything follows from the hip!
Some interesting material for the pipe.

About 1:20 and 4:05

As to the diverging inside ski, and in keeping with the history theme, Diverging Parallel used to be a stage in Psia’s Centerline model.
View attachment 198631
View attachment 198632
Barnes, Bob Encyclopedia of Skiing 3rd Ed, 1999

The schematic shows early counter right after the neutral pt in transition.

Has anyone found that staying square at the top of the turn then starting to counter later, 1/2 way to or just above the apex (image 4-5) results in faster hook up and cleaner turns?

 

[RoninSkier]

Takao Maruyama skis similarly to the Korean skier you posted. He advocates rotary from the hips, pelvis!

He also advocates release from there. I don’t quite understand what he’s saying with that. But he says the sub talar joint is too loose, so he doesn’t start from there. Everything follows from the hip!
Some interesting material for the pipe.

Many don't understand what Maruyama says. Nor can replicate what he does as he explains it.
Still, he is a great skier.

 

[Rod9301]

The schematic shows early counter right after the neutral pt in transition.

Has anyone found that staying square at the top of the turn then starting to counter later, 1/2 way to or just above the apex (image 4-5) results in faster hook up and cleaner turns?

You want to maintain the old counter in transition until you change edges, otherwise your skis will slip on ice.
Then if you tip your old outside ski, you will be able to engage your new edges.
You don't want to stay square to the skis. You will of course be square for a very short time, from counter to counter.

 

[RoninSkier]

You want to maintain the old counter in transition until you change edges, otherwise your skis will slip on ice.
Then if you tip your old outside ski, you will be able to engage your new edges.
You don't want to stay square to the skis. You will of course be square for a very short time, from counter to counter.

I mean staying square to enhance early edge angle, hook up development per the schematic of edge angle developing in images 4 - 5.

 

[Rod9301]

I mean staying square to enhance early edge angle, hook up development per the schematic of edge angle developing in images 4 - 5.

This is what i understood, but you don't want to be square, old counter till AFTER the edge change
Try it on an icy slope and you will feel the skis slipping if you are square and don't maintain the old counter.

 

[JESinstr]

Although in the olden days counter (of a number of body parts) was considered an intentional movement. I think today, most agree that counter happens as a result of implementing proper skill interaction with the ski.

 

[Rod9301]

Although in the olden days counter (of a number of body parts) was considered an intentional movement. I think today, most agree that counter happens as a result of implementing proper skill interaction with the ski.

I don't agree, if you want to angulate a lot, which you need on ice, you need to produce counter, not to ski into it.
But I'm talking about high performance turns on ice

 

[JESinstr]

I don't agree, if you want to angulate a lot, which you need on ice, you need to produce counter, not to ski into it.
But I'm talking about high performance turns on ice

I agree that ice requires high edges and extreme angulation. My point is that edge building via angulation is driven from the feet up. That is why I say counter is a resultant. Just a matter of focus I guess.

 

[RoninSkier]

I agree that ice requires high edges and extreme angulation. My point is that edge building via angulation is driven from the feet up. That is why I say counter is a resultant. Just a matter of focus I guess.

Skiing on ice requires being balance on the active ski or skis + good edge prep + being a lot more subtle with your edges IMHO.

Angulation & counter are motor action to counteract turning forces - to get balanced. Not a primary way to initiate or drive a turn but rather to mostly support the turn. Why when making MR to LR turns there is more angulation than in SR turns.... In SR its mostly foot/knee action with little to no angulation (yeah maybe in the knees) when running a flush in the gates.
Same for lengthening the outside ski, to allow it to take a higher load, to counterbalance building turning forces as well as a way to increase edge angle (along with the use of inclination).

Back to my original observation/question - has anyone experimented with staying square at the top of the turn (while flipping to the new edge) a little longer then starting counter jut prior to approaching the apex?
It seems to increase hook up at the top of the turn.
Yeah stay square too long and it will over rotate you.