Comparing the 2024 Boa Boots Offerings from Atomic, Fischer, K2 and Salomon

[Tricia]

Why would anyone be skiing with the dial hanging off like that?

Exactly!

 

[otto]

the Pointy Toe Last norm is a cancer eating the boot business patrons from the inside out!!!!!!

pop the knob off of the boot and remove all of the guides, they are bolt on's right?

...and I'm supposed to trust a boot fitter

It seems like you must have an unusually shaped forefoot if you believe that the market currently forces pointy toe boots through the pipeline, especially after I just found out from your post that the pointy toe last is actually a norm! Who knew?

Regardless of what everyone thinks they are seeing with the BOA system it will be on boots that are made out of newer thinner materials that will be hard to grind and because of materials changes hard to heat punch especially in certain zones, which some of those zones are common heat stretch zones.

Or for you low knowledge boot seller/fitters, just upsize the BOA model because the BOA is so good that you can turn a 27 100mm boot into a 26 98mm boot by simply microadjusting the knob on the BOA.

Yup, a cancer! Although it should be curable by all of the shops that do complex boot fits that will go out of business. I wonder if once I am out of a job, I could get work at home fitting boots over the internet?

 

[Wasatchman]

Hasn’t this been answered already? Racers already have boots that fit as closely as possible. They aren’t looking for a boot they can wear comfortably all day. They are looking for ultimate performance over the course of 1-2 minutes. They have access to the manufacturers and to every boot fitting expert/tool/technique imaginable. The average skier does not have this. It seems clear to me that BOA is (at least initially) designed to help the average skier, i.e., someone who doesn’t spend days with a fitter grinding out fractions of a millimeter to get a perfect fit. BOA is probably going to help a lot of people get a better fit in the lower cog. Maybe it won’t help the crowd of experts around here, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a good development regardless.

P.S. Buckles break all the time. More often than not, a least in my experience, in non-skiing environments, i.e., walking around the lodge and catching them on a chair, table, etc.

My experience is the tension on the first two buckles of a ski boot is way, way, way down the list of what makes a good fitting or comfortable ski boot. And many of us have no problem wearing our ski boots all day once we get them dialed in with current technology.

In fact, very often if one of my lower boot buckles comes undone I don't even really notice it more often than not to tell you the truth. And I can tell you I log way more days per season than your average regular recreational skier.

So I figure you know who is the most likely to notice a difference in fit in that area of the boot? A pro skier is way more likely to notice the associated differences rather than your average recreational punter. So if they aren't on board with this thing, I'm inclined to believe at the end of the day it probably isn't that transformational for most average skiers.

As I said, I got no dog in this fight. But I'm skeptical because typically the tension on the first two boot buckles are pretty damn minor to me relative to a plethora of other factors.

 

[otto]

It is interesting when presented with real problem issues with BOA, the group on this forum immediately turns the argument back around to durability. That is not what is going to determine whether BOA is a success at retail or with the consumer. What determines the survival of BOA is does it actually change the landscape and give definitive better experience results to the end users. I am in the camp that it is 100% sizzle without a bit of steak. Or maybe it is all sizzle with a touch of beyond beef! I believe this because the cost of research with resin molds for testing and the final cost to replace hundreds of steel molds for production would break the back of the entire ski boot industry. They are attempting to ride the wave of the dream of BOA without enough effort to make it work universally well amongst all boot suppliers. And it is not for lack of trying on BOA's behalf. They are attempting to "help" the boot guys make better boots to match it better by developing working guidelines with the suppliers for implementing the system. But keep in mind the BOA people are not ski boot people. And the BOA guys are not responsible for bailing out the boot suppliers if they put sub standard applications of the BOA system on the market. Seems to me that was the demise of rear entry when so many boot suppliers jumped on the rear entry bandwagon by imitating the market leaders without doing the R & D work to insure that their offerings fit well and skied well. It's usually a saying that was used to describe wars, but "Those that can't remember history, are bound to make the same mistake over and over again". Maybe there are just too many young whippersnappers running the ski industry these days? So maybe it is not a matter of forgetting history, but a matter of having no clue that the history exists. And unfortunately all of us wiley old farts are either dead or senile?

The real issue is adapting the boots themselves to accept the BOA and improve the fit and skiability of the product by adapting shells and liners to work seamlessly with BOA. For those of you that are making a case for adding BOA to boots that are designed with shapes and materials related to buckles, the BOA would fail miserably as a bolt on solution. This is where R & D is necessary to get this concept to be a game improvement device versus another attempt to invent the next rear entry revolution in ski boots. I can say that the prototyping and pre- series testing did not see a whole lot of skiers in the USA market. Which I guess is OK, cause we only reflect a large portion of world wide sales of high end ski boots, LOL

When I worked for Salomon in the late 70's early 80's on the rear entry boot introduction, I can tell you that there were organized pre-series testing taking place on every continent and in every ski retail marketplace in the world. And even with all that testing and tweaking, the company only delivered nominal pre-packs of the the 2 available models so they could monitor its performance in sell through and on hill behavior. When it passed the first year intro, they started shoveling that stuff into the worldwide marketplace. This is undoubtedly a rush to market from a number of suppliers that have not done the necessary work to control and perfect this product intro. When I was visiting boot factories this past October, there were already visible in a few factories, bins full of lower shells molded to accept the BOA device. To see that much product produced without ever seeing a prototype in any country on snow should be a huge red flag. It means that the consumer is the guinea pig on this life changing technology. This is clearly not how product development should work in a sport with high technological needs.

 

[Tricia]

It seems that some people here have a vision that you're either for or against BOA.

That is not the only option. What about those of us who are willing to view it objectively as "an option"?

I can't emphasize enough that, while some manufacturers are claiming that this will ift lasts that range from 98-102 evenly, I don't buy into that but instead hope that skiers go to a fitter and get the appropriate boot, whether it has BOA or not.

Will there be skiers out there who read the hype and go to a boot sales person to buy the magic of BOA? Sure. That is one of the biggest pitfalls of the BOA campaign

Are the members of this site likely to be in that camp? Not as likely.

My point is, this doesn't have to be a polarizing topic. It can just be one option offered in boot offerings.

 

[Wasatchman]

My point is, this doesn't have to be a polarizing topic. It can just be one option offered in boot offerings.

Agree that it doesn't have to be polarizing. That said, I also understand the concern that ultimately could hurt the consumer (via higher ski boot prices) if it catches on in a meaningful way via marketing sizzle without actually delivering much real benefit.

 

[Snowfan]

I worked a race at ski Cooper back in January alongside race official Ken Gay. His mechanical engineer son was just hired by Boa to further develop their line.

 

[Philpug]

@otto, yes you are a traditionalist and prefer boots in their purist 4 buckle form, I recall you didn't even want a 3 peice boot in you shop for a while. But without quoting your whole post but in regard to R&D, we saw that in rear entry boots and also knee high boots too, one or two brands do the R&D then others throw product against the wall and hope it sticks. With the BOA, other than durability of the mechanism, how much on snow testing really had to be done? All four brands took existing inner molds that they felt were proven shapes and designs and just did new outer molds, I agree at a very high cost.

By expecting to reduce SKU's by saying that the boot will cover a mulitude of widths is a mistake and a poor direction especially if they expect the bood to go down in volume. I also think what we see now with Boa is not what we will see in the next few years, where we see boots designed from the ground up verses just a fit solution... err alternative.

 

[motogreg]

lol "life changing technology" might be spreading the butter on kinda thick...

 

[Vendome1888]

".. the BOA system it will be on boots that are made out of newer thinner materials that will be hard to grind and because of materials changes hard to heat punch especially in certain zones, which some of those zones are common heat stretch zones. ....Although it should be curable by all of the shops that do complex boot fits that will go out of business. I wonder if once I am out of a job, I could get work at home fitting boots over the internet?

The last word of the above post explains it all: manufactures are preparing for a retail landscape wherein a majority of ski boots are sold on-line or "fitted" at rental. Yes, the new thinner plastics will allow the BOA closure to work well enough...and obviate the need for heat molding, foot-padding, stretching, grinding etc. in shops, which is rarely ideal. For the minority of skiers who want to use PE/PU shells, the great Otto and his cohort will (hopefully) be around, thankfully, to adapt them.

 

[onenerdykid]

The real issue is adapting the boots themselves to accept the BOA and improve the fit and skiability of the product by adapting shells and liners to work seamlessly with BOA. For those of you that are making a case for adding BOA to boots that are designed with shapes and materials related to buckles, the BOA would fail miserably as a bolt on solution. This is where R & D is necessary to get this concept to be a game improvement device versus another attempt to invent the next rear entry revolution in ski boots. I can say that the prototyping and pre- series testing did not see a whole lot of skiers in the USA market. Which I guess is OK, cause we only reflect a large portion of world wide sales of high end ski boots, LOL

BOA won't fail miserably when simply placed onto a buckle shell - I've been skiing a Redster CS with BOA since 2019 (and I still use the same proto, same old parts). It works really well as a proof of concept & demonstrating the benefits of it vs. buckle. What my boot is not: properly integrated to a level befitting a professional boot manufacturer. My boot does not have the proper last shape that provides BOA-specific recesses in the shell for t-nuts, nor does it have a protective ramp on the shell, and a few other things that a BOA-specific mold & last should have. It's works at an R&D level, but not as a finished/polished go-to-market product you'd expect from a ski boot brand.

This is undoubtedly a rush to market from a number of suppliers that have not done the necessary work to control and perfect this product intro. When I was visiting boot factories this past October, there were already visible in a few factories, bins full of lower shells molded to accept the BOA device. To see that much product produced without ever seeing a prototype in any country on snow should be a huge red flag. It means that the consumer is the guinea pig on this life changing technology. This is clearly not how product development should work in a sport with high technological needs.

This product has been tested on snow since 2018/2019, in a variety of markets, which is far longer than every single boot brand's successful/proven models that are currently on the market. I'm sorry you didn't personally get a chance to see it. (That was not a snarky comment but a genuine statement of fact)

 

[otto]

It seems that some people here have a vision that you're either for or against BOA.

That is not the only option. What about those of us who are willing to view it objectively as "an option"?

I can't emphasize enough that, while some manufacturers are claiming that this will ift lasts that range from 98-102 evenly, I don't buy into that but instead hope that skiers go to a fitter and get the appropriate boot, whether it has BOA or not.

Will there be skiers out there who read the hype and go to a boot sales person to buy the magic of BOA? Sure. That is one of the biggest pitfalls of the BOA campaign

Are the members of this site likely to be in that camp? Not as likely.

My point is, this doesn't have to be a polarizing topic. It can just be one option offered in boot offerings.

Agree with you Tricia. It can just be an option. No different than choosing mismatched ski width and bottom profile for powder skis on hard pack ice. It does not need to be an either / or discussion. It would not be an issue, however if all the companies did their homework, R&D, and pre-series testing. It will also form pros and cons when some of the suppliers do the work, while others "me too" the process by cutting corners and just take existing boots and adapt the molds for BOA without making the necessary changes to allow the BOA to be a game changing technology. When the boots are designed from the ground up in terms of shell materials and thickness shaving to allow the lowers to close down efficiently around the foot, then we could calculate that a BOA wave in the market is a good thing.

 

[Wasatchman]

".. the BOA system it will be on boots that are made out of newer thinner materials that will be hard to grind and because of materials changes hard to heat punch especially in certain zones, which some of those zones are common heat stretch zones. ....Although it should be curable by all of the shops that do complex boot fits that will go out of business. I wonder if once I am out of a job, I could get work at home fitting boots over the internet?

The last word of the above post explains it all: manufactures are preparing for a retail landscape wherein a majority of ski boots are sold on-line or "fitted" at rental. Yes, the new thinner plastics will allow the BOA closure to work well enough...and obviate the need for heat molding, foot-padding, stretching, grinding etc. in shops, which is rarely ideal. For the minority of skiers who want to use PE/PU shells, the great Otto and his cohort will (hopefully) be around, thankfully, to adapt them.

So are you postulating the primary benefit of BOA is easier out of the box fit rather than an ultimately inherently superior fit?

 

[onenerdykid]

The last word of the above post explains it all: manufactures are preparing for a retail landscape wherein a majority of ski boots are sold on-line or "fitted" at rental. Yes, the new thinner plastics will allow the BOA closure to work well enough...and obviate the need for heat molding, foot-padding, stretching, grinding etc. in shops, which is rarely ideal.

Not by my brand, not while I am product manager.

 

[motogreg]

So are you postulating the primary benefit of BOA is easier out of the box fit rather than an ultimately inherently superior fit?

If it is, I would argue it will be a better solution for 90% of skiers out there.

 

[otto]

".. the BOA system it will be on boots that are made out of newer thinner materials that will be hard to grind and because of materials changes hard to heat punch especially in certain zones, which some of those zones are common heat stretch zones. ....Although it should be curable by all of the shops that do complex boot fits that will go out of business. I wonder if once I am out of a job, I could get work at home fitting boots over the internet?

The last word of the above post explains it all: manufactures are preparing for a retail landscape wherein a majority of ski boots are sold on-line or "fitted" at rental. Yes, the new thinner plastics will allow the BOA closure to work well enough...and obviate the need for heat molding, foot-padding, stretching, grinding etc. in shops, which is rarely ideal. For the minority of skiers who want to use PE/PU shells, the great Otto and his cohort will (hopefully) be around, thankfully, to adapt them.

Truth . . . Much of the effort around boot innovation has transparently been around eliminating the need for boot fit expertise. In a perfect world without ski boot fitting specialists, ski boots could be fit for the masses by selling heat moldable shells, heat moldable liners, and closure systems that are less finite than the current crop of boots. I do not agree with the concept of perfecting the direct to consumer model for boot sales. My resistance may have something to do with the fact that I own a specialty boot fitting shop that's existence is predicated on one on one boot fits to improve comfort and performance on snow. I should point out the truth for my business is that BOA, GripWalk, Custom heat molded shells, and custom heat molded liners will keep our business healthy and strong for years to come. The future damage to ski retail will be to the poor dealer that has not moved their business's into the forefront with key services like custom boot fitting, and performance ski tuning.

So to help you read between the lines, my concerns about BOA, or any of the boot business technical trickery, are in no way personal for me or my business, they are concerns that the supplier to the retailers has for years been studying counter concepts for how they can capture more money by selling direct to consumer, versus having to deal with us whiney, ignorant, complaining retailers . . .

Just as a final thought, there has been some buzz around online retail ski shops that inventories are higher than usual and bill paying for a few of the big guys is a little slow. Signs that online retail for ski gear may not be the panacea that some of the ski and boot suppliers are dreaming of. Skiing is still a very difficult sport to perfect and information and knowledge is one of the commodities that good ski retailers need to perfect and maintain to succeed against online competition whether it is from another retailer or the suppliers that sell direct to market.

 

[James]

New observational skills needed! Now when someone shows up with their buckles maxed out and not in agony, you know their boot is way too big. Going to have to look for the Boa overlap I guess. Or the guy who shows up with the cordless impact gun to tighten the Boa.

Heh- new product! Replace that Boa knob with a metal one with removeable winch handle and 19mm nut head. Upgrade the cable!

I wish we were having this discussion over the latest generation, new design, performance rear entry boot. Instead, it’s debating how a knob and cable does something or not to closing the clog.

I wonder if we’ll see crap examples that turn people, and say instructor examiners, off Boa like happened with rear entry boots.

 

[pchewn]

I am very happy to have purchased new ski boots this season without BOA. I'll let everyone else try out the new (to ski boots) technology and it can either fail and go away or succeed by the time I need new ski boots. That will be in about 3-4 years.

I did get snagged with the forced GRIPWALK soles on my new boots. After researching what it would take to convert all 4 pair of skis to GRIPWALK compatible bindings, I replaced the boot's default GRIPWALK soles with the alpine soles.

Q: If I am "forced" to buy BOA boots in the future (e.g. the best fitting high-end boot models only have BOA). Can I retrofit buckles onto the shell and remove the BOA? (Like I did with my GRIPWALK soles). I doubt it.

There are more things I would have rather seen in boots before BOA and Gripwalk.

I do agree K2 is overstepping a bit with their claim of BOA being the biggest advancement in the past 60 years.

 

[otto]

Agree that it doesn't have to be polarizing. That said, I also understand the concern that ultimately could hurt the consumer (via higher ski boot prices) if it catches on in a meaningful way via marketing sizzle without actually delivering much real benefit.

Price increases are never problematic when there is game improvement. Which is why I am digging in pretty hard on this topic.

In 1996, you could buy a top end mountain bike for $1500. Last October we sold an Evil eBike for $17,000! In 1996 a pair of high performance ski boots sold for $600 at retail. In todays market with todays dollar value the high end retail boots are selling for $650 to $750. Using similar percentages as the mountain bikes skis and boots which are both greatly improved from 1996 should be $2,500 for boots and $3,000 for skis and bindings.

That's the comedy of BOA. If it's so good why are the boot guys coming to the retailers with the sheepish, guilty look on their faces, apologizing because they are raising boot prices $25 to $75 at retail. As a retailer, I would much rather sell one boot for $2500 instead of having to sell 4 pair at $750 to get $2500. In the exact same manor that I would prefer to sell one Evil eBike a day at $17,000, instead of selling 7 $2,500 bikes to come up with the same cash. I would love it if the ski business caught onto the concept of working smarter not longer and harder for less of a result. BOA and the boot brands that are referencing it, challenge yourselves to deliver product to the market that makes us all profitable.

 

[Tony Storaro]

We are going to see more cable closures even without the dial. I was recently at a conference in Finland and saw these from Nordica; which seem on the face of things to offer the worst of all worlds...

View attachment 201067

LOL I am lost for words on how dumb this is…