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Continuing to ski hard while aging gracefully??

no edge

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As well as heredity. Some athletes are good at their sport because they have the correct genes. Swimmers are naturally loose and they stretch as well.

I believe that stretching is something that can be risky for skiers. This is true even if you spend time at home stretching and even in yoga class.

I was introduced to joint mobility exercises at Crossfit years ago. It depends on the box, but often little stretching is taking place. Instead, joint mobility is what is going on.

I use joint mobility in certain joints like ankles, wrists, hips, neck, and shoulders. It is more of a movement that includes range of motion. I find the the joint responds quickly to range of motion by telling the body that "we" are going to be moving. I have really stiff hips and the swinging motion that racers often do with their legs before the race, represent "joint mobility" and are especially helpful. It is so simple and for me it works.
 

Seldomski

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I think there is some confusion here regarding range of motion, mobility exercises, and stretching. I am not a PT or licensed in any way - just a guy who exercises posting on the internet...

I do know that poor range of motion/mobility will certainly reduce your ability to perform dynamic exercise. You simply do not move as efficiently and have to work harder to simply move. In all exercise, first you learn the motion and how to do it properly. Then you add resistance.

I have been told that 'stretching' where you get into a pose against a solid object and then use force to feel a 'pull' and 'hold' that position for more than 10 seconds is not 'good for you' in significant volume. As part of a structured PT regimen, sure - but then you are trying to get to some level of range of motion and may not need to continue doing the 'stretch' once you reach your goal. I do not 'stretch' in a static fashion, but I will warmup and/or cooldown with exercises that work 'range of motion' - such as unweighted or light resistance squats, lunges, swinging leg, 'butt kickers', high stepping, jumping jacks, etc. Basically, all 'dynamic stretches', not holding a specific pose.

I was introduced to joint mobility exercises at Crossfit years ago.

Same and I have much better mobility now that when I started. It took me about 5 months to get enough range of motion to do a squat with thighs at parallel. Now I can go much lower - the limitation is my hamstring touches my calf.

All that said, I don't take as much care to do mobility exercises while skiing. I only get 10-20 days on snow a year, so foregoing warmup exercises does not have a huge impact. I will do a little warm-up if I am waiting for someone in the morning, but generally don't because I want to ski, not stretch. I am also aiming to ski all day, so there's a lot of time to 'warm up' by simply skiing. I may do some bodyweight stuff in the evening in the hotel room to loosen things up. If I am doing a lesson where a ski off is likely, I will actually try to warm up with exercises a bit first to ski my best.
 

no edge

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When I ski, first mobility action is for my hips - not stretching. Then stretch knee to chest with the help of my arms. Shoulder rolls in both direction. Hands on bent knees and move them in a circular motion - both directions.

In the old days I never did a first run warm-up. But now if I don't the whole day tends to be off. I have tried to go without the warm-up but when I jump right into it, in order to ski with the boys there's a price. So I have to go ski a blue and it irritates the heck out of me.
 

martyg

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When I ski, first mobility action is for my hips - not stretching. Then stretch knee to chest with the help of my arms. Shoulder rolls in both direction. Hands on bent knees and move them in a circular motion - both directions.

In the old days I never did a first run warm-up. But now if I don't the whole day tends to be off. I have tried to go without the warm-up but when I jump right into it, in order to ski with the boys there's a price. So I have to go ski a blue and it irritates the heck out of me.

I have access to gym, pool, hot tub, etc at our hill. I spend 30 minutes working mobility before I ski. It helps me access more ROM, and ski more efficiently.

Likewise, my first and last runs are on a top to bottom green run. I use that time to go through my checklist of things that I am working on / sensations that I want to capture. I find that this is especially important on the slat run of the day. The turns that you remember most? Your last couple. Make them perfect so thgat you carry that sensation with you until your next ski day.
 

martyg

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Sooo, a simple Google search easily finds articles from Harvard Medical and the Mayo Clinic touting the benefits of stretching, but I'm supposed to take word of Outside magazine instead?

On-point. Outside Magazine is largely a shit show of misinformation. They barely pay their writers - especially under new ownership.

I wouldn't trust any source on training unless it was from a peer reviewed, professional journal. Those are rarely read with a subscription being paid.
 

SSSdave

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Interesting discussion. Does it matter whether one regularly stretches or not? In like manner does exercising regularly intensely have significant benefits? Obviously for top competitive athletes in any sports, such is absolutely necessary. Although some individuals given their genetics, body type, and life style may benefit, for others like this person, it may not if one is just involved at modest sport levels.

Little me a senior into my eighth decade, at 138# 66" will be carrying a monstrous 60# of gear, starting a backpacking trip Wednesday morning climbing a modest 2000 feet of vertical over a 12k pass. For preparation since my ski season ended abruptly early April due to lack of new snow, I've only been urban street walking/exercising a few times each week and over the last couple weeks climbing my residence stairway up and down a dozen times most days with a 55# pack on my back. Well 2 of us did go on an easy 3 day warm-up backpack 4 weeks ago. Thus not much effort. Before this last ski season my preparation was similar and during the season never did more than ski 2 to 4 times each week. And spent most of my skiing days in long bump fall lines.



Over decades have never bothered with stretching. Over decades I've had some loose cartilage issues that except for one injury have self healed. Also long ago a few bouts of modestly strained knee ligaments and never broken bones.
 
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Tony S

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As one might expect, the value of stretching (and flexibility training in general) has been extensively investigated in recent years. The results consistently show that stretching routines neither improve performance nor prevent injuries. They do, however, feel good.
Another question: Why do we think that feeling good does not improve performance?
 

Marker

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On-point. Outside Magazine is largely a shit show of misinformation. They barely pay their writers - especially under new ownership.

I wouldn't trust any source on training unless it was from a peer reviewed, professional journal. Those are rarely read with a subscription being paid.
I haven't heard this opinion of Outside magazine before, but I'm not that familiar with it. As a retired chemist I'm familiar with peer reviewed journals and the patent literature, and the allure of the contrarian point-of-view.
 

Mike King

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Sooo, a simple Google search easily finds articles from Harvard Medical and the Mayo Clinic touting the benefits of stretching, but I'm supposed to take word of Outside magazine instead?
did you look at any of the articles from peer reviewed journals that were embedded in the article?
 

geepers

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did you look at any of the articles from peer reviewed journals that were embedded in the article?

Well I did.

The quick discussion: we are all individuals and need to be careful about accepting blanket assertions.

Longer discussion:

The main ref of the Outside article is an article in Sports Medicine titled “The Case for Retiring Flexibility as a Major Component of Physical Fitness” by exercise scientist James Nuzzo. Strong credentials. Did his PhD at the UNSW in Australia which is a well regarded university, one of the best here. Now lives in Australia. So plenty of ticks there.

Unfortunately can't access Nozzo's article without outlay of money. The meaty bit of the abstract states:

First, I show flexibility has little predictive or concurrent validity with health and performance outcomes (e.g., mortality, falls, occupational performance) in apparently healthy individuals, particularly when viewed in light of the other major components of fitness (i.e., body composition, cardiovascular endurance, muscle endurance, muscle strength). Second, I explain that if flexibility requires improvement, this does not necessitate a prescription of stretching in most populations.

Ok, what else can we find out? The Outside article notes:
Let’s start with a definition: the paper focuses on static flexibility, as exemplified by the sit-and-reach test, in which you see how close you can come to touching your toes (or how far beyond them you can reach) while sitting on the floor with legs outstretched.
Hmmm... that's a bit of a narrower definition of flexibility than would be of interest to me. Nuzzo's web site brings up this interview with the guy himself about his article.


Yep, there's a big focus on the sit and reach test. But as Nuzzo says (around the 55 minute mark) there's a good deal more nuance to the point he is making.

A couple of examples:
1. His concern on the over-focus on stretching is, say, the case of some-one who can only do 3 thirty minute exercise sessions per week. Spending 5 to 10 minutes of those sessions on stretching would be a less than optimal use of time.
2. Sit and reach may not be that indicative of usefulness of flexibility for a given sport (or in fact any sport).
3. He's not a clinician dealing with injured or movement compromised people.

There's quite a few other such points. Folk can watch if they have a spare hour.

Personally, improving sit and reach ability has little to do with the reason for finding stretching useful. Nor do I fit in the only 3x30 group.
In the ski season I spend 5-6 hours exercising in the outdoor white gym. This activity has consequences. The large amount of time spent in a flexed stance tends to tighten hip flexors and quads. Days in the bumps tends to compress spine - no doubt exacerbated by stance and movement pattern issues. Those need to be returned to some semblance of normal at day's end in order to co-exist comfortably with the body and at least start the next day's skiing in comfort. A few minutes stretching appropriately works. I'm certainly not going to go do some resistance training.

Off season there are issues with normal RoM. A a couple of minutes stretching certain muscles (that aren't about to be worked) can assist greatly in properly executing an exercise and therefore getting best benefit for the effort and time.

There may be merit in the point that flexibility (as measured by sit and reach) is not much benefit to skiers. Skiing does not necessarily require the ultimate in flexibility - although flexibility in hips and in legs would seem very useful in high performance carving and bumps respectively. A healthy individual with excellent technique and normal range of motion of all the moving parts may well finish the day tired but in no other way degraded. The same individual may well be able to use resistance training (for example) at other times to build strength/endurance through the full range of motion required by skiing. Good for them. Not in that group myself.
 

Mike King

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@geepers, nice writeup. Personally, I think truth lies between no performance gain from stretching and stretching helps. We had an interesting conversation with Tom Gellie about stretching after he said he didn't stretch and didn't see the point of it. He pointed out that if you are tight it's a sign that the muscles are short and stretching them only adds to their shortness. We then pointed out that some of his exercises appear to be aimed at stretching to gain mobility, but he said that the training was not stretching, but rather working on eccentric loading of the muscles to increase strength, control, and mobility.

In my mind, how I've reconciled it is to dismiss (for the most part) static stretching. Instead, I spend my time on dynamic stretching and specific exercises to try to gain (nay retain) mobility in my aging body...
 

François Pugh

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It's complicated. You need a certain range of motion to ski well, IMHO. If you don't have it, or you've lost it, you need to do something to get it back. If not stretching, then what?

Granted, you don't need to be able to sidekick the ceiling or kick a tall person in the nose. Doing a kick-turn on 190 cm skis? Perhaps. Flexing properly in flex to release high performance turns? For sure. IMHO of course.
 

geepers

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@geepers, nice writeup. Personally, I think truth lies between no performance gain from stretching and stretching helps. We had an interesting conversation with Tom Gellie about stretching after he said he didn't stretch and didn't see the point of it. He pointed out that if you are tight it's a sign that the muscles are short and stretching them only adds to their shortness. We then pointed out that some of his exercises appear to be aimed at stretching to gain mobility, but he said that the training was not stretching, but rather working on eccentric loading of the muscles to increase strength, control, and mobility.

In my mind, how I've reconciled it is to dismiss (for the most part) static stretching. Instead, I spend my time on dynamic stretching and specific exercises to try to gain (nay retain) mobility in my aging body...

Much of this may come down to terminology. I put some of BPS Ski Moves into my 'stretching' category - may not be correct. Such as the spine sessions (ski pole behind back) and (those prone and upright, slow arcing of the pelvis/spine), the active stretch for quads/flexors. Happy to think of them as dynamic whatevers but for me they are as much about letting certain muscles elongate whilst working the opposing ones.

Now I don't want to fine print BPS as I find Tom's and Sam's content to be outstanding value. Both for pre-season prep and on snow understanding.


Maybe the thinking behind this has changed or what I call stretching isn't really the official definition of stretching...:huh:
 

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