Could we have a new player in the ski boot world ... Kästle?

[ScotsSkier]

This guy was in RE boots in the 90's and was far from a low performer.


What @James is saying is the industry needs some options for high performing rear entry boots, like the Salomon SX-92/3 more than another 4 buckle overlap race boot.

But Kästle is looking to become a full line company and looks like they are starting with their tried and true method of starting and the top end and working their way down market.

yup!, Salomon spent 10+ years and $XXXm developing a rear entry boot and eventually came up with..... a four buckle overlap boot!!! (and having spent one season in the original SX90 Equipe i understand why! )

Who is that? I don't recall ever seeing rear entry boots as performing well in the racing world. Were there any to speak of?


.....t comparison.

I am pretty sure Marc Giradelli was in the Salomon SX boot (or at least one heavily modified )

 

[James]

What advantages does a rear entry boot have for racing? Where I'm from, rear entry boots were low performance boots?

Frankly, who cares?
They race in what they race. Hirscher at least some years raced in a red plastic Dobermann with Atomic stickers. Fewer and fewer people race though. Ski design is hardly beholden to race ski design, why should boots be?

They used to downhill race in Flexons. Don’t know how modified they were, probably greatly. Marc Giradelli early on raced in rear entry Salomon SX 90’s that were apparently more like Grand Prix’s they were so modified. So not exactly a rear entry though it looked liked one.


David McPhail built boots for some of the Canadian downhillers in the late 70’s/early 80’s some of which barely had a liner.

There’s no shortage of overlap race boots.
Even if you end up essentially with that design, what’s so different to make it worthwhile to start another one? I guess the company thinks they can make money with recycled designs. Ok. Yawn.

A shop has a choice of Nordica, Lange, Atomic, Salomon, Fischer, Technica, plus something I’m prob forgetting. Why would they add Kastle?

 

[neonorchid]

Who is that? I don't recall ever seeing rear entry boots as performing well in the racing world. Were there any to speak of?


My question still remains, what is it about a RE boot that makes it worth innovating upon? I liken it to Mazda and the rotary engine, cool technology, that is barely better than a HS science fair exhibit. Mazda squandered (IMO) money on that failed experiment rather than kill it and move on. As a fellow Miata aficionado, @Philpug can understand that comparison.

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"that'll pair an electric motor with a rotary gasoline engine,"

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"The automaker has sought to build on the legacy of its quirky rotary engine design, best known for its use in the RX-7 and RX-8 sports cars. An engineering marvel that uses fewer moving parts than a typical piston-driven engine, the rotary configuration has historically been challenged to meet modern emissions standards. Reimagined for the 21st century, this unique technology brings character to upcoming Mazdas and a bit of nostalgia."

 

[bbbradley]

Frankly, who cares?

A product looking for a problem in an already crowded market will fail. Unless the rear entry provides a fundamental improvement, why would anyone buy it aside from to be quirky?

In a past role at a global leader in innovation, I was on the other side of the development wall (they were really bad about that) and was often the recipient of products and had to find the problem. Sometimes i found a match, sometimes I didn't. Solving problems is a far easier path to success than just inventing for sport and hoping it sticks.

From what I've seen of them, the Dodge boots are a blend of rear entry and front entry, though they are a small player in the market.

 

[bbbradley]

"The automaker has sought to build on the legacy of its quirky rotary engine design, best known for its use in the RX-7 and RX-8 sports cars. An engineering marvel that uses fewer moving parts than a typical piston-driven engine, the rotary configuration has historically been challenged to meet modern emissions standards. Reimagined for the 21st century, this unique technology brings character to upcoming Mazdas and a bit of nostalgia."

Again, Mazda wastes money on this rotary...put the money into where cars are going, EV! Selling a fringe technology (based on a mainstream tech that is in decline) to the "character" and "nostalgia" market sounds like a winning strategy!

 

[James]

From what I've seen of them, the Dodge boots are a blend of rear entry and front entry, though they are a small player in the marke

Dodge has nothing to do with rear entry unless they’ve changed since we visited them 2 years ago. It’s an overlap boot with a ramp of roughly 5 degrees built in to the shell that’s built like a clamshell and held together by rivets and that bottom part. It’s heat molded carbon fiber. Now only done by them as dealers didn't work.

Their “innovation” was making a 3-d model of your foot and being able to pre- punch the boot. The software for this from cell phone pictures is now fairly common.

I can’t remember the full story told to us by Dave Dodge or Bill Doble, but the head of Rossi was basically responsible for the carbon fiber boot development. When he left/died, the company wasn’t interested in continuing.

Unless the rear entry provides a fundamental improvement, why would anyone buy it aside from to be quirky?

Nowhere did I say it had to be a rear entry. Just, lets see some innovation. Could be in how one fits a boot. This is just another product in a crowded market. Shops don't need another race boot.

But, “improvement”- on/off in seconds without pain or struggle. Come in, take off, get lunch. Put on/off in car easily when cold. People with restricted movement in ankles- many older people, can get in it and ski instead of not ski because it’s too much hassle.

Since production is really not much different technically, other than being Eastern Europe, they may be able to make their just another boot cheaper. Still, why does anyone care? It’s teal maybe. I guess they’ll price them lower than the others to gain share. They’re going to have to offer something significant for a shop to ho through the huge hassle of stocking them.

Ha, in my other post I forgot Head, and I ski in Head plugs.

 

[bbbradley]

Dodge has nothing to do with rear entry unless they’ve changed since we visited them 2 years ago.

The upper part of the boot flexes back to make them easier to take on/off, like a rear-entry boot I thought.

 

[Mike Thomas]

The upper part of the boot flexes back to make them easier to take on/off, like a rear-entry boot I thought.

Nope. There is a channel in the back to try to help the heel slide in, because no one would ever get in/ out without it.

I agree with James, the only real reason to enter this arena would be with something truly innovative. Break the mold, do something revolutionary. There is a cycling shoe start-up, the Loreone from Lore Cycling (hello Stephen Drake, formerly of DPS), that is 3d printing from a foot scan done with an app. They're charging $1900 for them. Adidas has a 3d printed sunglass for $450. BRING ON the era of $7500 SKI BOOTS!!!

 

[Mike Thomas]

Or, be clever and stick with the 'Heritage Vibe'. Talk Dynafit into building a modern 3f Comp S, that'd be cool.

I know Phil keeps beating the 'a full line needs boots' drum, but to that I say two words- Volkl, Blizzard. They're doing just fine.

 

[James]

The upper part of the boot flexes back to make them easier to take on/off, like a rear-entry boot I thought.

Mike covered it.
It has that bulge shape in the spine to make it possible to get in because the carbon fiber is so rigid and you can’t open the throat enough. So the heel goes back instead of the instep pushing forward.

Perhaps this is why it looks like it pivots-

Don’t know why it’s like that. Perhaps because you could change the forward lean by changing that wedge piece. I don’t remember that part. We couldn’t take photos in the shop. They were very nice to show us around. It’s a very small shop. Dave Dodge is also involved in binding safety.

That added sole piece goes over the two halves. The boot is assembled from 3 molded pieces plus the sole and spine, buckles, power strap.
That’s the big difference I didn’t realize till seeing it. They are not hand laying up carbon fiber cloth with resin. That would take an army.
They’re molding and punching for fit and assembling.
There’s some high tech stuff and basic boot shop tech. There’s a small robot involved, and the guy who did that setup/programming is in an old barn at the end of the road in the woods. He’s using high tech stuff to make things for the defense industry.

I remember seeing the cuff- it comes flat sheet, they cut the shape, then heat mold it. I believe the clog halves are a similar process, but my sieve memory forgets. Maybe @TheArchitect remembers? We had a small group from the NEG that went there.

Part of the reason they stopped using dealers is the difficulty molding the carbon fiber construction. It has to be heated to a pretty controlled temp, so they have special equipment.

The shop near Burlington. That’s the other partner Bill Doble.
Speaking of Giradelli, they made a pair for him. In terms of wcup, the only one I know was Warren Nickerson, though I’m not sure he was actually on the US A Team when he was using them.

 

[Philpug]

Or, be clever and stick with the 'Heritage Vibe'. Talk Dynafit into building a modern 3f Comp S, that'd be cool.

I know Phil keeps beating the 'a full line needs boots' drum, but to that I say two words- Völkl, Blizzard. They're doing just fine.

They both have full lines of boots.
Volkl has Dalbello
Blizzard has Tecnica ... which it started the other way around, Tecnica bought Blizzard so they could get a ski brand...plus manufacturing.

 

[David Chaus]

Nowhere did I say it had to be a rear entry. Just, lets see some innovation. Could be in how one fits a boot.

I agree with James, the only real reason to enter this arena would be with something truly innovative. Break the mold, do something revolutionary.

You mean, like Apex Boots?

 

[bbbradley]

Maybe it's time to revisit this idea:

 

[Philpug]

Maybe it's time to revisit this idea:

View attachment 141211

If you have ever skied the Nava, you would not ask that question. Now, the lever boot concept, that actually still skis quite well.

Lever Concept Boot for Comfort and Performance

Part 1: History and On-Snow Experience Could a reincarnated 40-year-old boot concept, one that never reached the market, be the answer for the recreational skier today? We are talking about the Kastinger-Porsche design, the boot that started the...

www.skitalk.com

 

[CascadeConcrete]

I guess they’ll price them lower than the others to gain share.

Last I checked, that wasn't really Kästle's thing...

 

[Philpug]

Last I checked, that wasn't really Kästle's thing...

No but they are coming down market with offerings like the entry level EX74 and the very good mid priced PX81

 

[TheArchitect]

Mike covered it.
It has that bulge shape in the spine to make it possible to get in because the carbon fiber is so rigid and you can’t open the throat enough. So the heel goes back instead of the instep pushing forward.
View attachment 141200
Perhaps this is why it looks like it pivots-
View attachment 141202
Don’t know why it’s like that. Perhaps because you could change the forward lean by changing that wedge piece. I don’t remember that part. We couldn’t take photos in the shop. They were very nice to show us around. It’s a very small shop. Dave Dodge is also involved in binding safety.

That added sole piece goes over the two halves. The boot is assembled from 3 molded pieces plus the sole and spine, buckles, power strap.
That’s the big difference I didn’t realize till seeing it. They are not hand laying up carbon fiber cloth with resin. That would take an army.
They’re molding and punching for fit and assembling.
There’s some high tech stuff and basic boot shop tech. There’s a small robot involved, and the guy who did that setup/programming is in an old barn at the end of the road in the woods. He’s using high tech stuff to make things for the defense industry.

I remember seeing the cuff- it comes flat sheet, they cut the shape, then heat mold it. I believe the clog halves are a similar process, but my sieve memory forgets. Maybe @TheArchitect remembers? We had a small group from the NEG that went there.

Part of the reason they stopped using dealers is the difficulty molding the carbon fiber construction. It has to be heated to a pretty controlled temp, so they have special equipment.
View attachment 141206
The shop near Burlington. That’s the other partner Bill Doble.
Speaking of Giradelli, they made a pair for him. In terms of wcup, the only one I know was Warren Nickerson, though I’m not sure he was actually on the US A Team when he was using them.

Your memory on this is better than mine. I remember being surprised that they were so modular and I thought the slot on the back of the upper was a smart solution. I also remember @dbostedo wanting a better color selection

 

[dbostedo]

I also remember @dbostedo wanting a better color selection

Nothing wrong with that!

 

[oldschoolskier]

I think given modern manufacturing, design software and a good mind (or a few), I can see the market opening up for those willing to pay to play.

 

[skipress]

I'm having trouble getting my head around what is a very small player in terms of 'branded' dealer network if not numbers of skis made throwing a LOT of money at this.

I can't see how they could 'create' an entire line of boots without simply burning €50 notes. They re just not big enough - look at K2 with their resources, profile and dealer network, they're not regarded as an unadulterated success after years in the boot business

Sporten makes their money by building skis for other folk under their own brands; if they want to get into the boot business it makes sense for them to use the same model in reverse.

The cost of creating let's say a super tight collection of 5-6 models would be stratospheric with only a tiny dealer network to sell them to unless they did something extraordinarily clever there's a cap on what they can sell. Unless you re also a Kastle ski dealer you're not going to can [say] Tecnica and replace them with Kastle boots. Much as the blue boot looks fun... it remains a round wheel.

Unless of course they are buying say Alpina or Roxa [actually... thinking about it Alpina is not impossible...]