Custom footbeds, take 'em out?

[razie]

Tom uses completely flat insoles over carbon fibre sheets. No heel cup, no arch support or shape.

Totally! And before that, he didn't. And after that... will be very interesting to follow this one for a while and see what he'll settle onto... although he's been here for a while and will likely stick to it, as it definitely seems to work for him!

If you look at his actual statement (or one of them), you'll see that it's totally specific to his feet and his boots and his focus is like I said to allow just as much range of movement as needed (bolded part mine).

Tom Gellie: “I use a custom insole but it is completely flat. The only reason I use a custom flat one instead of the
stock manufacturer insole is because the surface material is more grippy. Because my foot is not rigidly stuck from a custom footbed I have to do quite a lot of boot work to allow for the space my medial malleolus, navicular and big toe to not be compressed. This means punching and grinding to get a more customized fit. I also cut quite a bit of material away from my liners to help allow the foot bones to be mobile and go through their ranges of motion needed for balanced efficient
skiing.”

Ski Boot Footbeds in 2017 - Elite Skiing

What do the EliteSkiing.com A-Team members have in their ski boots? One of our members asked me what the A-Teamers were using as far as footbeds in their ski boots. So, I posed the question to them all and found out that there is not...

eliteskiing.com

My take-away: you should experiment until your skiing improves (not your feelings, but objectively, your skiing, with video proof), without prejudices

 

[LiquidFeet]

Tom uses completely flat insoles over carbon fibre sheets. No heel cup, no arch support or shape.

Tom has exceptionally fit feet.

 

[Steve]

Yes. He has however encouraged me via email to do this, his attitude is that it is a good thing, not just something that works for him. He recently had an Instagram post quoting another skier who tried it and loved it. Felt cat-like he said.

Worth trying for sure.

 

[Noodler]

Yes. He has however encouraged me via email to do this, his attitude is that it is a good thing, not just something that works for him. He recently had an Instagram post quoting another skier who tried it and loved it. Felt cat-like he said.

Worth trying for sure.

Worth trying, but I think it's important to re-emphasize what @razie bolded above, that the material on the footbed surface is critical to making this work. I would go so far as to say that in my experience the material is critical whether your custom footbed is flat or typical. I have had numerous footbeds and build my own from Sidas blanks. Along the way I used the Sidas Custom Mesh and the Custom Pro. The mesh top surface is designed to make it easier to slide your foot into the boot. The Custom Pro is grippy. Huge difference in performance. Having a grippy surface on your footbed provides a much higher level of control (and also comfort since your foot stays put).

So consider the material that covers your footbed. It's one of the reasons why I started installing my boot heaters by separating the layers of my footbeds and effectively embedding the heater element below the original top cover of the footbed. This ensures that the footbed feels and operates exactly as it did before the heater was installed.

 

[Steve]

What do you think of these?

LegacyThree (Standard Cushion)

The little brother to the original 6mm Legacy; the exact same material except in a typical insole thickness of 3mm. Has the same characeteristics as the 6mm including: NASA grade materials: The materials we use are THE BEST. Our foam will not squish down over time like other memory foam insoles...

northsole.co

 

[Steve]

With carbon fiber insoles glued to the bottom.

 

[Noodler]

What do you think of these?

LegacyThree (Standard Cushion)

The little brother to the original 6mm Legacy; the exact same material except in a typical insole thickness of 3mm. Has the same characeteristics as the 6mm including: NASA grade materials: The materials we use are THE BEST. Our foam will not squish down over time like other memory foam insoles...

northsole.co

Ask them about the grippiness of the fabric top cover.

 

[Noodler]

Here's the Sidas footbed blanks I've used:

CUSTOM WINTER PRO

The Custom Ski Pro is designed for skiers who are looking for incomparable comfort and performance. Constructed using new materials that mould more easily to the feet. - Ionfoam® topcover: Cushioning & antibacterial - Transflux® reinforcement: Support & stability - Transflux®: Support -...

sidas-usa.store

CUSTOM WINTER PRO MESH

The new Custom Ski Pro Mesh is designed for skiers who are looking for unrivaled comfort and performance. Materials that are easier to mould to the feet, and an Ionmesh® top layer, which makes it easier to slip your feet into your ski boots. - Thin foam topcover: Cushioning in low shoes volume -...

sidas-usa.store

Sidas used to make a model called the "Ski Pro" which was the best of both worlds. It was grippy under the heel through the mid-foot (same material as the current Custom Pro), but then it had a soft cushy Alcantara velour fabric under your toes. It's my favorite of my footbeds.

 

[cantunamunch]

What do you think of these?

LegacyThree (Standard Cushion)

The little brother to the original 6mm Legacy; the exact same material except in a typical insole thickness of 3mm. Has the same characeteristics as the 6mm including: NASA grade materials: The materials we use are THE BEST. Our foam will not squish down over time like other memory foam insoles...

northsole.co

Did you ever watch Josh Poertner's web show, particularly the one on hysteresis?

Anyway, back in the day I used to do a lot of urban inline skating, on rough concrete and on brick and on random terrain because it was there. And of course I knew about Poron, so I cleverly made flat insoles from blue and pink and yellow (which do actually have different flex rates and rebound speeds).

A week later I had blisters and bruises on the tops of my toes - because the underfoot Poron was rebounding too fast and too much when unloaded and smashing my toes into the sewn uppers.

 

[Steve]

A thread from 2 years ago. "Spread your toes..." I found these two posts. Zenny (I miss him) used barefoot shoes, and no orthotics too. Follow one of those quotes to that thread, go to the beginning of the thread. Some good stuff.

Research on barefoot shoes explain that by removing the heel lift in traditional shoes, it moves the foot strike to midsole.

Josh Foster below talks about staying centered right in front of the heel (back of the arch.)

After a similar discussion on Epic a few seasons ago, I replaced my custom foot beds with the original thin liners and appreciated a discernible improvement in my skiing.

That was my experience as well Fish

zenny

 

[Steve]

Did you ever watch Josh Poertner's web show, particularly the one on hysteresis?

Anyway, back in the day I used to do a lot of urban inline skating, on rough concrete and on brick and on random terrain because it was there. And of course I knew about Poron, so I cleverly made flat insoles from blue and pink and yellow (which do actually have different flex rates and rebound speeds).

A week later I had blisters and bruises on the tops of my toes - because the underfoot Poron was rebounding too fast and too much when unloaded and smashing my toes into the sewn uppers.

No, not familiar with this. Hopefully your rough skating would cause a lot more of those issues than skiing.

 

[Uncle-A]

Did you ever watch Josh Poertner's web show, particularly the one on hysteresis?

Anyway, back in the day I used to do a lot of urban inline skating, on rough concrete and on brick and on random terrain because it was there. And of course I knew about Poron, so I cleverly made flat insoles from blue and pink and yellow (which do actually have different flex rates and rebound speeds).

A week later I had blisters and bruises on the tops of my toes - because the underfoot Poron was rebounding too fast and too much when unloaded and smashing my toes into the sewn uppers.

Did the boot on your skates fit as tight as your ski boots? Just asking for a friend.

 

[cantunamunch]

No, not familiar with this. Hopefully your rough skating would cause a lot more of those issues than skiing.

Here's the episode. There's a direct mention of it wrt to underfoot footbeds when he talks about the foam in a running shoe. The EVA foam vs Arkema foam discussion is directly relevant to underfoot feel. The part about stiffness reducing hysteresis (and making rebound speed less dependent on the total energy that's been put into the system) is why cork feels so different from EVA underfoot.

Did the boot on your skates fit as tight as your ski boots? Just asking for a friend.

Certainly. Any looser and 40mph+ downhills get bloody. But far more adjustable, because laces rock.

 

[Steve]

Watched it. Very interesting. I’ll have carbon fiber under the foam. I wonder how that will impact it. (Pun intended.)

 

[Jay S]

When I got my first set of custom footbeds 20years ago it improved my skiing significantly. It was as if my foot became directly connected to the skis edge and my ability to make carved turns was greatly improved. I have a very average foot without any pronation issues.

 

[markojp]

I wonder if barefoot/minimalist insoles would be even better. They are completely flat.
We'll see. It's pain I'm concerned about. The custom footbeds also raise my heel, which adds pressure to the tails. A more flat footbed would put me more forward.

A higher heel doesn't change the amount of forward lean, but it does open the ankle and gives you more leverage to bend the boot. Lifting or not lifting is all about sagital ankle mobility and feeling the bottom of the foot is matching the bottom of boot. Lift can be built into or added separately from the footbed. If your custom is lifted in the heel, I'd add some heel lifts when you remove your footbed, ski awhile, them perhaps take out the lifts... just to control the variables.. add and/or eliminate one at a time. All just my opinion of course. Will be interesting to hear your feedback. It's always an excellent idea to reconsider what we think are our personal truths.

 

[Uncle-A]

I have skied all three ways as I have said in my first post. I will stick with my soft self customized foot beds. Those that want to experiment are welcome to try and I think that those that don't have any major foot issues will find it interesting. Those that need to have foot issues supported will probably go back to what ever foot beds that work best for them. As for the runners that go barefoot I wonder if they are going to have long term issues. Something that doesn't bother you when young may give you problems when older. I have to think that the shoe companies like Adidas and New Balance hire the best foot doctors, shoe designers and their top rated products are not flat. The heel is a wedge and they have good foot beds that support the foot.

 

[cem]

i will make a similar statement here that i did on a very well known face book group about these matters

the key with any footbed is that the boot fitter understands the flexibility and range of motion of the foot that it is being used with, the product needs to be matched to the use, there are no hard and fast rules as to how rigid or flexible a footbed is, only that it has to match the foot and the space it is being used within. the main purpose is to give functional contact over the entire plantar surface of the foot and to help maintain the foot in its best functioning position, whilst allowing the foot to flex and not deform, without there being this match in materials to foot flexibility there may be good or bad results but when matched correctly the results are mostly good. An unstable foot without some form of footbed will be a moving target inside the boot, and i am not sure if i have the time between each turn to allow my sub talar joint to maximumly pronate and my navicular to slam into the side of the boot, but hey, each to their own

 

[Steve]

Thanks @cem I understand your point.

I skied this morning on easy terrain for a few hours with the stock footbeds. Just felt, hardly any shape to them. I skied well, my feet didn't hurt, and I felt an increased awareness of where I was on my feet fore and aft. I felt that I could use my feet with a bit more control down low. The orthotics move the control higher up, more to the sides of the boots. No orthotic feels more like my foot is more involved.

This may or may not work out on steeper terrain, and more G forces than what I experienced today, but so far so good on taking out the rigid orthotics.

 

[Mike King]

Did you put the Barr footbed in? Tom suggested trying the footbed under my existing footbed...