Do I have to carve?

[Andy Mink]

You don't have to carve to have fun. BUT...once you get the feeling of being on edge and laying tracks with the flow that comes with it, you'll have MORE fun. At least that's what I found.

 

[slowrider]

Carving

Not Carving

 

[Henry]

In this spring skiing sometimes we have to ski through slush. Think of slush like thick icing on a cake. Some people slice through the icing (carve movements). Some people spread the icing around (pivoting/skidding movements). Pushing slush around is hard work. Slicing through the slush can be fun.

And there's powder. Put the skis on edge and glide through the powder. Relax both legs, let the skis flatten and rise, then put them on the other edges and they turn you the other way. Or, hop above the surface and come back down with the skis pointing another direction...whew, hard work.

So, get the skis on edge and let the skis turn you. Don't try to bend your knees sideways. If someone tells you to do that, smile, nod, and don't do it. Get the edge angle to the snow from counter and angulation and lightening the inside ski on the snow.

 

[Seldomski]

I'm not interested in being super fast. I just want to have fun and feel like I'm in control of my movements.

Learning to carve will teach you movement patterns that can enhance your fun and level of control while skiing. It doesn't necessarily imply going much faster or dealing with higher levels of force. High speed/big angles is generally what you will see in carving ski videos on the internet because that is more entertaining to watch than 'old man skiing.' They generate more clicks and so get promoted to the top of the video heap.

If you are having fun and skiing in control now, no reason to 'aspire' to do anything. You can have tons of fun skiing skidded turns and moguls are a great place to practice 'not carving.'

Another recent thread about merits of carving vs. skidded turns:

Is skidding a legitimate ski move? Is it incorrectly malinged?

Apart from it being useful to slow down when descending a very steep hill I don't get why this move is discouraged or why skiers are pushed to outgrow it and move on to carving. I get that all ski moves have their uses be it skid or pizza or carve or switch. I've seen videos of skiers who...

www.skitalk.com

 

[David Chaus]

Do you have to carve? Only when you're carving.

 

[geepers]

Who actually tries to bend the knee sideways?

Guilty. In the period of never doing lessons, never reading/watching anything on ski technique. (Don't think classic Warren Miller films and resort promo vids count as instructional.)

Of course it doesn't actually work and means daily voltaren and evening ice packs.

Forever grateful to the instructor who picked that up and pointed out the path of knee lasting righteousness.

The question is how many people are doing that in futile attempt to get more edge because they haven't heard better? Plenty of skier's candy munchers around. Think about it every time some-one says "the bumps hurt my knees."

 

[Fuller]

Well it states right here in Article 6 / Section 7 / Paragraph 1 of The Universal Rules of Skiing (Snow Division):

"All skiers must learn to carve."

 

[scott43]

Well it states right here in Article 6 / Section 7 / Paragraph 1 of The Universal Rules of Skiing (Snow Division):

"All skiers must learn to carve."

Wasn't that modified by the second amendment?? Or are you one of those literal interpreters of the universal rules...

 

[Fuller]

Scott, I keep telling "You People" that Universal can't be amended - or it wouldn't be Universal!

 

[Ken_R]

Hi everyone!

Newbie here, both to this forum and also mostly to skiing. After a couple of questionably successful days on skis as a teenager, I (now 37) tried again this year and got a couple of days in in the late season in the Austrian alps. Couple hours with an instructor, then going down blue and red (European rating) groomers with vaguely parallel skis

I'm not the fastest learner when it comes to movements and coordination, but I enjoy skiing. I'm not interested in being super fast. I just want to have fun and feel like I'm in control of my movements.

So I am wondering now:

- Do I *have* to aspire to "carve"? It feels like all instructions, both online and with the (3) instructors I had, were: learn snowplow, then go vaguely parallel, and then edge edge edge and bend your knees in ways that make me worried about my tendons. I'm exaggerating of course, but I'm a little confused by the apparent lack of other techniques? Is there anything else still?

- If I'm staying on groomers, is there ever a reason *not* to use a narrower (up to 80mm) "carving" ski? Are those always easier to turn than wider skis or could a wider ski actually be more fun on groomed runs?

Thanks a ton!

You dont HAVE to but you WANT to, at least when you want to.

 

[François Pugh]

No you don't have to carve clean arc-2-arc turns.
However, if you never do, you won't know what you're missing.

 

[slowrider]

 

[Hankj]

Strictly speaking of course not.

But practically speaking, people who know how to carve know how to initiate a turn by tipping the skis, not pivoting or brushing the tails.

I have family friends who have skied probably 400 to 1000 days, and no one in that family can carve. They can all ski steep blues very fast by controlled power scrubbing down the runs. The kids can ski steeps slither through trees do okay in moguls, etc.

But none of them can lay a trench. And, not coincidentally, they're all bad at skiing powder, at least powder that is steep, or deep, or a wee bit heavy. The problem is that you can't initiate pow turns with a pivot, or at least not well. You need to be able to tip the ski and let it run and trust that that gets you to where you want to be and feel safe. Weighting and when and how you apply pressure is different skiing powder than carving hard pack, but the initiation of the turn by tipping the skis is a related skill.

So I would argue that if you learn how to tip into turns and carve, it's going to be easier to learn powder skiing, you will be able to manage trap crust much more easily, etc.

Plus, when the going gets weird or sketchy or complicated, it's great to have all the tools in your quiver. There are times when whatever is in front of you calls for a carve more than anything else. I can carve, but I don't have the jump turn sorted out, so I've been working at that. I'm sure it will come in handy at some point when I'm nosed into a corner on something steep.

Plus plus, carving is really fun. To me it gives the same kind of thrill as going really fast, but with much less hazard to myself and probably the general public. It's relatively safe high-joy skiing. It feels scary to get started but once you realize that the worst that will happen is you wash out and slide it feels a lot safer than mach schnell power slarving, which can throw you over the bars.

 

[slow yeti]

Thanks a lot everyone. Lots of food for thought in all of your answers (and a couple of memes and laughs).

Especially the points about it being one essential tool for skiing in a safe and controlled way. Will take all of that with me for my next days on the slope and hopefully also find some good instructors to help me get the hang of it.

Really appreciate all of you for taking the time to address my question!

 

[LiquidFeet]

- Do I *have* to aspire to "carve"? It feels like all instructions, both online and with the (3) instructors I had, were: learn snowplow, then go vaguely parallel, and then edge edge edge and bend your knees in ways that make me worried about my tendons. I'm exaggerating of course, but I'm a little confused by the apparent lack of other techniques? Is there anything else still?

- If I'm staying on groomers, is there ever a reason *not* to use a narrower (up to 80mm) "carving" ski? Are those always easier to turn than wider skis or could a wider ski actually be more fun on groomed runs?

Thanks a ton!

1. Carving does not involve bending the knees sideways, if that's what your instructors seemed to be saying to you. Instructors with better communication skills can show you how to start learning to carve (where the ski's tails follow in the line the tips create, leaving pencil-thin tracks in the snow) without endangering your knees. It's worth the time to learn for all the reasons others have offered upthread. To get the carve to work the skier must be precise in how the turns are started, so it takes time to learn.

*If as a beginner you are a bit backseat, you'll need to get that fixed first. Skiing backseat is hard on the knees, by the way, so that could be part of what's bothering your knees in your lessons.

2. Yes, there are ways to make technically good, safe, useful, and fun non-carved, skidded turns (where the skis skid across the surface of the snow, and do not leave pencil-thin tracks). There are many ways to make skis do a skidded turn. Some are dysfunctional, so lessons on making skidded turns are a good thing. Some are good and useful in all those situations where carving is not practical, and those situations outnumber the ones where carving is safe and fun. At least where I ski here in the northeast US that's the case. Some ways of making skidded turns demand quite a bit of precision while using unfamiliar body movements, so again lessons targeting these turns is useful. Skidded turns are more useful and definitely more safe than carving when you're skiing on crowded groomers. By the way, skidded turns do require use of your edges, so being able to tip the skis is still mandatory. And narrow "carving" skis make tipping the skis up on edge much easier than fatter skis, whether you are skidding or carving.

3. Fat skis on groomers with hard-packed snow are not more fun. I'm talking about firm snow that's packed down, where the snow supports your skis up on top, not down in it. If the skis are wide at the waist and you're on hard groomed snow, you aren't going to be able to tip them up even on low edge angles without stressing those knees. So if you ski mostly on firmly packed groomers, where it doesn't snow almost daily, then you should learn to make both skillfully skidded turns and carved turns, and you should do this learning on narrow "carving" skis because it's all so much easier to learn on those. Then when you're good on groomers, you can buy fatter skis to get off into the ungroomed soft, freshly fallen snow if you want. The skills you will have learned on the narrow skis will transfer to the fat skis just fine.

 

[Hankj]

By the way, skidded turns do require use of your edges, so being able to tip the skis is still mandatory

This is certainly true. And you can transition from a skid into a carve and even back again in the same turn. To me though the key benefit of knowing how to carve is that it gives you confidence to initiate turns by tipping the skis while letting them skis and not brushing the tails or pivoting at all. This opens up a number of dynamic options for what you can choose to do and when and where. It's nice to feel that, if you choose, you can more or less just fall sideways and everything is going to be fine.

I I think another reason to learn to carve is that the way you apply power from your body when you are carving is less physically taxing than skidding. Skidding to me seems to require a sort of tense bracing against sideways forces that can beat up your minor muscles, feet, back, etc. Carving might take more as much or more energy input, but it feels more focused into major muscle groups in a way that is squared up and comfortable. I feel just as tired when I've been doing a lot of carving but less thrashed.

I think I'm making a distinction between braking and turning, and expressing the opinion that knowing how to carve is helpful in being able to "ski the slow line fast" if you choose.

What does "ski the slow line fast" mean?

I've heard it from lots of people, but it still doesn't make sense to me. @Chris Geib suggested that I start a new topic and page @Bob Barnes ... so - Bob, or anyone, can you edumucate me?

www.skitalk.com

Another benefit of carving, as someone mentioned above, is that it doesn't just feel good, it looks cool. It's a skill that you can develop as an intermediate skier that pays back more in steez than it costs in effort to learn.

Anyway, I don't mean to be coming across as evangelical about carving - there's all kinds of ways to turn that feel good and look good and work well, many people ski happily without ever really railing their skis. But if it does appeal, it's well worth it to learn.

 

[Hakuba]

To me, carving is an enjoyment without any penalty, not like cigarette, alcohol
Except my pocket

 

[mister moose]

- Do I *have* to aspire to "carve"? It feels like all instructions, both online and with the (3) instructors I had, were: learn snowplow, then go vaguely parallel, and then edge edge edge and bend your knees in ways that make me worried about my tendons. I'm exaggerating of course, but I'm a little confused by the apparent lack of other techniques? Is there anything else still?

- If I'm staying on groomers, is there ever a reason *not* to use a narrower (up to 80mm) "carving" ski? Are those always easier to turn than wider skis or could a wider ski actually be more fun on groomed runs?

I would aspire to learn ranges of motion, and in this case, ranges of edge angle for a given turn radius, and of course greater ranges of edge angle in general that you are able to achieve. As edge angle increases for the same speed and radius, at some point the tails no longer skid, they follow the tips precisely. Learn to adjust, not merely set it.

Carving is not necessarily less work.

May I have an amen.

If you start turning with gusto, you will get religion on this. If you get your COM at 45 degrees to your feet in the turn, you are pulling 1.4 G's. At 60 degrees you are pulling 2 G's. Balancing and adjusting at those forces is... umm... work.

 

[jt10000]

This is interesting.

 

[Tony Storaro]

Hi everyone!

Newbie here, both to this forum and also mostly to skiing. After a couple of questionably successful days on skis as a teenager, I (now 37) tried again this year and got a couple of days in in the late season in the Austrian alps. Couple hours with an instructor, then going down blue and red (European rating) groomers with vaguely parallel skis

I'm not the fastest learner when it comes to movements and coordination, but I enjoy skiing. I'm not interested in being super fast. I just want to have fun and feel like I'm in control of my movements.

So I am wondering now:

- Do I *have* to aspire to "carve"? It feels like all instructions, both online and with the (3) instructors I had, were: learn snowplow, then go vaguely parallel, and then edge edge edge and bend your knees in ways that make me worried about my tendons. I'm exaggerating of course, but I'm a little confused by the apparent lack of other techniques? Is there anything else still?

- If I'm staying on groomers, is there ever a reason *not* to use a narrower (up to 80mm) "carving" ski? Are those always easier to turn than wider skis or could a wider ski actually be more fun on groomed runs?

Thanks a ton!

You won't have to carve when you are perfectly able to carve and then it will be a matter of choice.
Until then, you DO have to aspire to carve. When you mastered it, you won't have to do it.

Being a beginner and not aspiring to master the beautiful sport of skiing to the highest level you personally can reach with all its facets is a lazy ass approach that will get you nowhere.

P.S. There should be no weird knee bending involved.

P.P.S. The wider you go with the ski, the more difficult the carving will be. 80+ mm carving ski is oxymoron.