Do I have to carve?

[James]

You won't have to carve when you are perfectly able to carve and then it will be a matter of choice.
Until then, you DO have to aspire to carve. When you mastered it, you won't have to do it.

Being a beginner and not aspiring to master the beautiful sport of skiing to the highest level you personally can reach with all its facets is a lazy ass approach that will get you nowhere.

P.S. There should be no weird knee bending involved.

P.P.S. The wider you go with the ski, the more difficult the carving will be. 80+ mm carving ski is oxymoron.

Then you can be like Hansi!

 

[dj61]

I guess your Austrian instructor has suggested you to focus on the movements not on the outcomes per se. The movements are basically the same for all type of skiing. Edging the skis is one of them. Edging does not necessarily results in a carved turn but it is a prerequisite. Keep taking lessons from Austrian instructors and you will be fine and maybe eventually carve a few turns. And as others mentioned: good skiing should not put any unhealthy pressure on muscles and tendons. Skiing is however a sport.

 

[JESinstr]

This thread is the perfect example of why most discussions of the term "carving" start out as a FUBAR and go downhill from there. I think the root cause of this is that many treat Carving like Porn..... they know it when they see it, or at least they think they do.

Try thinking of carving as a process, the process of converting straight line travel into circular travel which IMO, is the premier function of the modern shaped ski. If you adopt this definition then you can have intelligent conversations on different quality levels of the process from simple carving techniques to advanced carving techniques.

Like any process, you can be good at it, bad at it or as many skiers are, unaware you are even doing it.

For instance, many intermediates have the opportunity to begin the carving process when they naturally get on edge as they point (rotate) their skis into the fall line but most are not focused on continuing the process but instead are setting up a defensive stance against the straight line pull of the hill.

With beginners, if you are properly center balanced in a wedge, the pressure one feels when moving forward is actually the skis trying to carve (turn) into each other. When pressure is released from one of the skis, circular travel begins. I make sure every beginner understands this and leaves class with this knowledge. Going forward, controlling edge angles is added to the process.

 

[cantunamunch]

This thread is the perfect example of why most discussions of the term "carving" start out as a FUBAR and go downhill from there. I think the root cause of this is that many treat Carving like Porn..... they know it when they see it, or at least they think they do.

It tickles me no end that Francis Bacon named this particular semantic swamp as "Idols of the Forum" - in 1620!

 

[James]

Saying any circular (is it??) travel is carving is equally absurd.
When beginners experience two ski carving they end up in a heap if they don’t hit someone or something.

 

[JESinstr]

Saying any circular (is it??) travel is carving is equally absurd.
When beginners experience two ski carving they end up in a heap if they don’t hit someone or something.

How so? And if it is the properties of the ski that is creating the circular travel what would you call it?
When a skier gets 2 skis carving I wouldn't call him/her a beginner any more.

 

[cantunamunch]

Saying any circular (is it??) travel is carving is equally absurd.

Not sure if making pun, if yes, well done.

When beginners experience two ski carving they end up in a heap if they don’t hit someone or something.

So is "start teaching 2SC at the release" a valid conclusion here?

 

[James]

Just so tuna and Francis Bacon are happy, you’re calling these turns carving?

 

[JESinstr]

It's not about the turn. The turn is the result. It's about activating the carving function of the ski. In this case,
the outside ski is trying to create circular travel but the demoer is limiting the carving process by actively introducing rotary. Don't get me wrong, the end game is to create the turn shape the skier wants.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....It's about activating the carving function of the ski. In this case, the outside ski is trying to create circular travel but the demoer is limiting the carving process by actively introducing rotary....

Just to be clear, you see active rotary in those turns?

 

[JESinstr]

Just to be clear, you see active rotary in those turns?

In some it is evident and some not so much. Even the description implies rotation. But regardless the centered stance, preset edge angle and pressure management are how we get that outside ski to create circular travel. Any rotary can be intentionally or unintentionally induced. And as I mentioned above, we now can discuss carving in terms of quality of process.

 

[François Pugh]

Just to be clear, you see active rotary in those turns?

I did notice on one of the turns that the left ski tip got pivoted towards the other in advance of edging providing impetus for the turn (and edging and ski shape causing rotation of the ski). When students learn pivot a flat ski before having an edge turn them, and learn it from the get go, it's no wonder that some skiers cannot ditch the habit later (when they don't need to pivot first).

 

[geepers]

Is circular travel a precise enough definition for carving? And what's doing the circular travel - the CoM or the skis?

Paraphrasing Paul Lorenz...
There's slipping/skidding where there's a great deal of sideways movement for any forward motion of the skis.
There's gripping where the amount of slipping/skidding is controlled so that there's more forward motion and less sideways motion of the skis.
There's slicing where the skis are railing on edge with tail essentially following tip so there's very little sideways motion but not much control of turn radius.
And then there's carving where the skier, largely through edge angle, controls the amount the ski bends and hence the radius of the turn.

Feel it's also meaningful that Lorenz points out that not all skiers will progress all the way from slipping to carving, that the journey may take many seasons and even the best are constantly attempting to refine their movements for efficiency and performance.

 

[Tony Storaro]

When students learn pivot a flat ski before having an edge turn them, and learn it from the get go, it's no wonder that some skiers cannot ditch the habit later (when they don't need to pivot first).

Absolutely spot on! It takes quite a long time and efforts to get rid of this-the habit to pivot the outside ski.

 

[AtleB]

 

[jt10000]

Is circular travel a precise enough definition for carving? And what's doing the circular travel - the CoM or the skis?

Paraphrasing Paul Lorenz...
There's slipping/skidding where there's a great deal of sideways movement for any forward motion of the skis.
There's gripping where the amount of slipping/skidding is controlled so that there's more forward motion and less sideways motion of the skis.
There's slicing where the skis are railing on edge with tail essentially following tip so there's very little sideways motion but not much control of turn radius.
And then there's carving where the skier, largely through edge angle, controls the amount the ski bends and hence the radius of the turn.

Feel it's also meaningful that Lorenz points out that not all skiers will progress all the way from slipping to carving, that the journey may take many seasons and even the best are constantly attempting to refine their movements for efficiency and performance.

As a newb this typology is very helpful to me. I'm deep into gripping - pretty good brushed turns. We'll see about slicing and carving. I have issues not just with control and body dynamics but also worries about speed. I can slice on really easy terrain but that's about it at the moment.

 

[James]

There's slicing where the skis are railing on edge with tail essentially following tip so there's very little sideways motion but not much control of turn radius.

And then there's carving where the skier, largely through edge angle, controls the amount the ski bends and hence the radius of the turn.

I don’t see the difference in that description. On an arcing ski, tail follows tip, you control radius by edge angle, which changes the amount it bends.

I think what’s left out is allowing, if one wants, for slipping yet “carving”. Aka the brushed carve.

Is Hansi carving? When he’s not say doing a flat spin.

Sorry, you have to endure the non skiing parts.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I don’t see the difference in that description. On an arcing ski, tail follows tip, you control radius by edge angle, which changes the amount it bends.

I think what’s left out is allowing, if one wants, for slipping yet “carving”. Aka the brushed carve.

Thank you for saying that part above about the lack of real difference between slicing and carving. I was thinking the same thing but not willing to disagree with Paul Lorenz - publicly.

And yes, there's the "brushed carve" or "scarve," a term I remember from back in Epicski days. We need a recognized acceptable-to-all term for that kind of turn, and we need to talk about it more so people understand that it exists and is different enough from arc-to-arc carving to have a name. I expect Paul Lorenz knows and does this type of turn at will. It's odd that he doesn't mention it.

I've finally made it happen in my skiing but before that I didn't quite know what it was.

 

[dbostedo]

It's odd that he doesn't mention it.

You don't think that falls under "gripping" in his definitions?

 

[James]

He differentiates between carving and railing- park and ride. “Progressively bending” the ski is how he differentiates.

————
While the ski can, and does bend when it is skidding, steering, carving and railing - “bending/working the ski” is most commonly referred to when “pure” carving.

Purely carving the ski means that the ski is slicing into the snow through the turn with zero skidding. The tail of the ski follows the exact same path as the tip, a pencil thin line is left as a track and the ski is progressively bending through the turn.

When skiing with this performance, progressively bending the ski allows the skier to shorten the radius of the arc/turn therefore giving the skier control over the turn shape and speed. It also creates a stronger and more manageable build up of centripetal force and “rebound” effect. The following diagram shows 2 skis, one is bending more than the other and means that the arc that it is travelling on is tighter.
———————

THE TRUTH BEHIND CARVING!

One often sees skiers from the chairlift locked on their edges but travelling relatively straight or on a very large arc. This is called “railing”, or “parking and riding”, and is unfortunately what a lot of skiers are out there doing. Some of these skiers may not be aware that they are railing...

www.paullorenzclinics.com

I don’t think anyone would call this “park and ride”, but is it really “progressively bending”? Edge angle/bending is going to increase just by going across the slope.