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Exploring third vehicle options: bigger and badder

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DanoT

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Two years ago I sold my 4runner so I could get in my condo's parking garage with a canoe on the roof. The first day of looking for a AWD wagon I found a very low mileage 2006 Volvo XC70, 2.5L 5 cylinder turbo. I took it for a test drive and fell in love with it and bought it on the spot. It is now just about to turn 160k km/100k mi.

A sightly used Volvo XC70 could replace the Outback and I think is slightly bigger. (note: XC70 has 8" clearance, V70 AWD does not) It features a 40/10/40 split rear seat set up so skis can go between the seats.

Volvo is known for its very comfortable seats that your husband will find equal to or better than his BMW.

The power and handling of my Volvo is impressive as it easily passes vehicles at 100mph on mountain highways. I love the lower centre of gravity that an AWD wagon offers over an SUV.
 
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Fuller

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Maybe. My husband says the new ones are fine. Of course, he hasn't been in one for three hours that I know of. He can do it - I just get to hear about it. Every time.

I haven't waded through all six pages but the latest version of the Outback is pretty comfortable. We do 10-12 hours in the saddle on our Montana trip with no problems. You really should test drive the 6 cylinder version of the 2018 Outback just for grins.
 

scott43

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I haven't waded through all six pages but the latest version of the Outback is pretty comfortable. We do 10-12 hours in the saddle on our Montana trip with no problems. You really should test drive the 6 cylinder version of the 2018 Outback just for grins.
I have a 2013 Outback and I find it ok. Phil has tried it and says the seats suck. I think it was Phil. I suppose it depends on the person. I will say the Outback seems narrower than its size would indicate so it might be easier to park in smaller spots.
 

Muleski

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@Monique,

As mentioned, this is not "new ground" to me. I've had a lot of experience with 2.5L turbo in the Subie Outback. I'm also not an alarmist when it comes to high mileage cars. Have had plenty.

I feel strongly that the OEM turbo failure on this engine is a "when, not if" issue. I just had a pad of paper out, and just noted 11 friends and family. I think that one of them drove the car to close to 200K miles without needing to replace the turbo. I have seen them replaced at less than 50K miles, and after replacement, a failure 25K miles later. So, there is no standard on this.

Here's our experience; they can blow with no warning at all, OR they can start to make more noise {a screeching noise, caused by the bearings not getting enough oil to them}, and in some rare cases throw on the check engine light. The CEL is normally because of oil loss. That is pretty rare. People who work on these cars will often tell owners that they need to be much more in tune with the car, to pick up on these things if and when they pop up. If you get any noise, like that, shut the down. Don't limp home, don't drive a mile. Call AAA. Some people will say that it's fine to drive home with no turbo...no Subie expert would say so,

Because, if a Turbo blows, and you're driving at your normal 75 mph, with the car in boost {using the turbo}, it will disintegrate, and small metal pieces can end up inside your engine, wrecking pretty much all of the internals. So then you need an engine rebuild. Some times both the top end {pistons, valves, etc.} and the "short block", which is basically the lower half of the engine.

Much of this is not logical. I won't go into the design, but it happens. The intake fins of the turbo are soft aluminum. They "should" not be able to make their way into the engine internals. They can, and do. The exhaust part of the turbo is cast, and normally when they blow, they take ours there catalytic converters on the exhaust. Not cheap.

When I first asked the question of how much if one blows, my tech said $750 to $7500. A more "normal" price for a new replacement OEM turbo is about maybe $1600-1800 installed. Most good Subie techs would never replace the OEM, as they think they are junk. So instead of a $1000 part, it's closer to $1500. The actual work is not bad. That is if you proactively replace it, or have no other damage.

So what do you do to try to prevent it? First, run the best oil you can. When my daughter showed up at her new Subie shop with a jug of Motul oil, a OEM "blacK' filter and a fresh crush washer, the tech was pretty surprised. She knew her "S***". Subaru cut their old change frequency in half, from 7500 miles to 3750 when the Legacy GT's and Outback XT's began to have this problem. It's expensive, bit it's important. There are two fittings on the oil line to the turbo called "banjo bolts", which contain small screens that are notorious for clogging with "oil junk". Some clean them frequently, many others remove the screens. No screens on our cars.

Then when you start the car, let the oil circulate and get to the turbo. I would say let it idle for a minute or so. My daughter is impatient, and knowing the consequences, she does this. When she stops, and parks, let it idle for a minute before shutting it down.

I'm not a fan of Subaru dealerships...at all. I have two good friends who own them. I would NEVER bring my Subie to a dealer for regular service once it was out of warranty, if I had other alternatives. Denver and Boulder are full of exceptional independent Subie techs. These guys know the cars inside and out. I would start by having one, maybe two, look at the car. Tell them that you are concerned about the turbo at your mileage. A good tech should be able to check for leaks, maybe inspect to see if there is play in the shaft, any sense of wear in the bearings, etc. If for some unimaginable reason the thing is still running with the banjo bolt screens in it, have them cleaned at the least. I'd remove them. It's easy.

Be prepared. Any one of these people is going to be mildly surprised, or "Holy S***", that you have the original turbo. If you've had the service done at your dealer, even the big ones in Denver and Boulder, I bet they don't take much time to inspect things like this. They do exactly what is on the work order, and nothing else. Go down the checklist, and maybe do that.

I completely understand why you love the car. I mentioned to our daughter that she WILL be replacing the turbo in her 2008 XT this spring at about 120K miles. No might, WILL. The car is mint, because it's in the high rockies, it's worth a lot of money, and she wants to preserve that. Even if she plans to sell it, which she well may, it will sell better with a new turbo, particularly having had no failure.

I and NOT an alarmist when it comes to cars. Not even close. Some cars have their quirks, and their own special items that need attention. When we bought out second Land Cruiser, it was a CPO vehicle off lease. I extended the CPO warranty to 100K miles for only one reason. I knew that in the 2000 model year, there had been premature transmission failures. Not that unique. When replaced, they were good for hundreds of thousands of miles with ATF changes. So I paid an extra $700 for the warranty. The transmission started to act up at about 85K miles, and was replaced at 90K miles. Sold that one at about 240K miles.

This is an issue. Not to sound like a jerk, but I don't care who may surface on Pugski, or at a dealership to say "not so." It's a known issue. When the initial 2005 cars were about four years old, there was a three month dealer backorder on replacement turbos. There was talk of class action suits, as Subie was initially denying a lot of warranty claims.

My advice.....if you are keeping the car, replace the turbo soon. Do it with a well rated indie shop, with a quality aftermarket turbo. You'll be good for as long as you own it after that. In terms of the turbo.

My daughter loves her car and says "I wish this thing were not such a Diva....seems needy." Yeah, it is, if you want to keep it in the shape it is. They are not the simple workhouse Subies of the nineties. Not these models. Nobody buys an STI or a WRX and treats it like a beater Camry or Civic.

Other Stuff:

1. CPO. Certified Pre Owned. In most cases, it means that the dealer has gone over the car with some detail, replaced whatever they can on warranty, and is selling it with a decent warranty. You can often extend the warranty for additional cost. Is it worth it? It all depends. CPO cars tend to not be cheap. If I could buy a mint used car, with similar mileage and a very thorough maintenance history with all of the records, and do so at a big price savings, I would be comfortable with that. If the CPO price delta is not much, I might lean strongly towers the CPO. Also depends on the car. Some are know to just be super reliable.

2. The 330. Will be worth more with a stick. Fun to drive. Good in snow. I assume that you husband wants to keep it. Might become the fun to drive car for both of you. if he keeps it as perfect as it sounds, it's a coveted car on the used market.

3. Suburban "barn doors". Loved them. 1999, I think was the end of them. Now, the visibility was not as good. No rear wiper. The current power lift gates are pretty darn nice.

4. Land Cruisers have two seats which form the third seating row. The fold up to the outside of the cargo area on both sides. Folded up, they still take up some serious room. The majority of LC owners that we know remove them {it's a 30 second process} and leave them out of the car unless you need to transport more than five people. I have a friend who uses them twice a year....to concerts. The cargo area is BIG with them out. Also easy to flip up one side of the 60/40 split second seat.
I dunno. Our son and his GF were back East this summer and had four bikes in the back of ours, with camping gear, etc. We have never once said "Man, I wish we still had a Suburban." Now having said that I like the newer Suburbans a lot more, and the newer LC's are insanely expensive and not the luxury utility vehicle that we love.

Not an easy choice. I think the Outback could become a real black hole in terms of maintenance. It's got some value now. I'd think about replacing that with another sports wagon of some sort.

And as a big beast, I'd think you have. a lot of options. I would absolutely buy used. On some, I would not be concerned with mileage, at ALL.

Good luck thinking it through!
 

Muleski

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Outback seats......entirely personal preference.

One of us has driven a 2002, 2005, 2008, and a 2014 on at least 2200 mile one way drives, at least 900 miles on most days, and we didn't need extensive PT.

Comfy? No. I'm not small. Most comfortable current seats for log trips...our Land Cruiser. All time favorite? Our 1987 Volvo 740 GLE wagon. Unbelievable seats. One that we sold far too "young".
 

Fuller

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I have a 2013 Outback and I find it ok. Phil has tried it and says the seats suck. I think it was Phil. I suppose it depends on the person. I will say the Outback seems narrower than its size would indicate so it might be easier to park in smaller spots.

I know the 2015 model year had quite a few changes from the previous year, not sure if it included a seat upgrade but it is a substantially better vehicle than before.
 

Sibhusky

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I thought the son and I were built weird, but I cant do 3H in the daughters outback without being in pain and he said the same thing at 30+years younger. The seats suck. I think they are made for 5'7" 130lb people ONLY.
I'm MISERABLE in my husband's Outback after two hours. It's the damn headrest. It's too far forward, and as a passenger, the adjustments to compensate are not there. I have to bring pillows and keep moving them around. The headrest situation in newer cars is one reason it took me so long to get a new car. I considered yanking the headrests from the Audi when I got rid of it. They had a ton of adjustments that seem to be missing in newer cars.
 
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Monique

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Hmm, no one has mentioned the other option.......upgrade to husband 2.0.....:rolleyes:

I like husband 1.0! Lots of features. Puts up with a lot of my foibles, too. And enables much of my lifestyle. Also an excellent furnace at night.

I'm MISERABLE in my husband's Outback after two hours. It's the damn headrest. It's too far forward, and as a passenger, the adjustments to compensate are not there. I have to bring pillows and keep moving them around. The headrest situation in newer cars is one reason it took me so long to get a new car. I considered yanking the headrests from the Audi when I got rid of it. They had a ton of adjustments that seem to be missing in newer cars.

For my husband, it's the shape of the seat, not the headrest. But I agree with you about the headrest. I do know people who have simply flipped the headrest. The flip side is that in an accident, you're creating a much worse whiplash scenario.

@Muleski arrrgh. That is a lot to think about. Especially proactive turbo replacement when it's been behaving just fine. We could pull off a new or used car if we needed to, so it would be $1500 or whatever in a scenario where the worst case wouldn't be a disaster. Except that I wouldn't get to keep that Outback XT. Thank you for all the time you've put into this thread - keep it coming! But I'm sure you understand I need to ponder your input. Bitter pill to consider swallowing. Do you have favorite Subie communities where I could read up on it?
 

x10003q

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I might have missed it - but has the Dodge Durango been mentioned? It seems to fit your needs. It is basically an extended Jeep Grand Cherokee and you can get it with a V8. It is a couple of inches shorter than the Tahoe/Yukon twins, although they also seem to fit your needs, too.
 

Dwight

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3. Suburban "barn doors". Loved them. 1999, I think was the end of them. Now, the visibility was not as good. No rear wiper. The current power lift gates are pretty darn nice.

2000-2004 you had the option of both. My 01 has barn doors. I like them. My 95 burb was a tank a great for everything.
 

Muleski

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2000-2004 you had the option of both. My 01 has barn doors. I like them. My 95 burb was a tank a great for everything.

Glad I said "I think!" By 2000, we had long left the Suburban behind. good to hear that you have a 2001 going strong.
Our 1995 was a great vehicle as well. How I ever let my dealer neighbor convince me too trade it, I will never live down. My wife snapped. That one was great looking. Dark green metallic with silver cladding. Gray leather interior.
The next two were built out of paper mache. The first transmissions in both were gone by 60K miles...to start.
I have the sense that the trucks were much better built in 2000 on.

BTW, my brother swears that the GMC's have always had a better build quality than the Chevy, which has never made sense to me.
 
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Monique

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Thank you ALL for all of your suggestions and for taking the time to consider my question.

To reiterate/summarize:

We currently have two vehicles - both manual transmission
  • His car - 2006 BMW 330xi with ~115k miles
  • My car - a 2008 Subaru Outback XT. with ~145k miles
I very rarely drive the BMW, which is kept in immaculate condition, inside and out. It is used for very short commutes and the occasional road trip.

The Outback does a daily commute of maybe 20 miles each way, but there are often side trips. I have averaged 16k miles a year. It’s also my outdoor activity vehicle, including ski trips most winter weekends. It is …lived in. My latest job involves a parking garage with narrow spaces, tight turns, and a low ceiling. I can park the Outback in this parking garage with a 16” roof box.

I’m considering a third vehicle for the following reasons:
  • I hate driving stick in I-70 traffic
  • My husband finds the Outback seats profoundly uncomfortable
  • Nothing that would work in the parking garage is remotely as compelling to me as the Outback I already own
  • For skiing and road trips, I want automatic transmission and seats that are comfortable for both of us
Requirements
  • It’s gotta be AWD or 4WD. FWD is not an option because of how chain law works on I-70. With AWD or 4WD and snow tires, I am street legal without having to deal with chains.
  • As it would not be subject to size restrictions, I want something big enough that I can shove at least one bike or a pair of 190 fat skis into the back WITHOUT negatively impacting the second row of seats. My dogs must be kept in the level of luxury to which they have become accustomed.
  • It can’t be underpowered. I realize that’s subjective, but I need it to have some oomph. As mentioned, while not a requirement, I’ve always wanted a V8. Thus, obviously, mpg is not a big factor to me, except insofar as it impacts mpt (miles per tank).

Now, on to your suggestions and my thoughts thereon!

Suburban/Yukon XL/etc: This was my original thought, and I still think it’s one of the strongest, if not THE strongest, contender. I especially like the idea of captain’s chairs so that there is even more room for storage. And it should be pretty capable getting up to trailheads on the rare occasions I need that feature. I will need to drive one to see if I can actually deal with the bulk (although I think I would get accustomed to it, anyway). It may be possible to get a pretty decent price if I go used. I was worried about the lack of fancy new features (I think I would be a much more attentive driver if I didn’t have to fiddle with my phone to fast forward a song, etc), but Phil pointed out I could install a new system if necessary. Oh, and while I didn’t specifically ask about this, I think I could sleep in the back of one of these quite comfortably.

Land Cruiser: Having looked at pictures and actually sat in one, I’m confused by people who say there’s plenty of room in there for skis and dogs. But I hear enough good things that I am all for it if it does seem like it will work and if I could find a good deal.

Toyota Sequoia: Now this is interesting. Because of its unique seating configuration, I think it’s a big contender. And more clearance than my Outback. And a V8. And good towing, in case that ever matters. This is one I had never considered, but seems like a solid choice, and it’s old enough that I could find a used one. Any word on reliability?

Big ass truck (F150/RAM/etc with largest cab and standard bed): I’m less excited about this than about the Suburban. Our primary usage would be for travel, not for hauling loads of mulch or furniture. And you can rent a truck for a day, pretty cheaply, if you do need that functionality. In some ways, your effective storage is limited because you can’t run things from the back right through to between the captain’s chairs. And I want the second row to be comfortable for when I do have people back there.

Ford Expedition EL: I’m vaguely under the impression that they are more “poser/looks” vehicles than serious cargo haulers that can handle some dirt. Am I just wrong?

Dodge Durango: Huh, I hadn’t thought of this one. It looks like one of those where the rear seats are almost flush against the back of the vehicle … making it tricky for the stated goals of getting a bike in the back while still carting around dogs in the second row … ?

XTerra/4Runner/Grand Cherokee/XC70 : I know these seem big, but they aren’t actually big enough for what I want in this third vehicle. I could accommodate skis + dogs with a roof box, but I could not realistically fit a bike in there for a road trip if I had the dogs. (I did it with my Outback. The bike barely fit with both wheels removed, and there was zero room for anything else.) I want to be able to put an expensive bike inside the vehicle for peace of mind. It’s shocking how frequently bikes are stolen.

Nissan Armada: I’m not convinced it has the cargo space I’m looking for. These are specific requirements of large items that do not fold or disassemble into smaller units very well. Skis and bikes. While yes, I can remove the rear wheel, I’d prefer not to. Honestly would prefer not to remove the front, either.

Sprinter van: Yeah, I looked at that, too. But my husband threatened to scrawl “FREE CANDY” on the side. And not available in V8 =/ And I’m not sure I can handle the aesthetics. I do love all the configuration options.

Minivan: Okay, but which one, @Crank ? Do any of them have decent ground clearance and actual good AWD? I’m not sure I could get over the aesthetics, no matter how practical. Note: If I got something this big, I wouldn’t want to have to have a roof box. The roof box is already awkward for me with my 2008 Outback, which isn’t terribly tall. Ah. @Tom K. suggested the Sienna. I just. Yeah. Oof. That look. I dunno. Ah, @jmeb suggests Dodge Promaster. Mayyyyybe so ugly it’s cute? But I’m leaning more toward, pretty darn ugly … but I like these out of the box suggestions for sure. It’s why I asked! Great ideas!

Honda Element: I could get over the look, but it’s wayyyy underpowered for my tastes.

Subaru Crosstrek: Also way underpowered. And smaller than my Outback besides.




FINALISTS

The Suburban class, Sequoia, and Land Cruiser all look very tasty. They have available big engines, 4WD, good clearance, should (pending investigation) be able to handle my cargo requirements, and fit my aesthetic sensibilities. They are all, of course, freaking expensive new, and not exactly cheap old. And now @Muleski has me thinking about the lifespan of my Outback. It would suck to buy a huge vehicle and then have my "parking garage friendly" commuter vehicle blow up.

It is unlikely I'll move on any of these in the next year unless I hear my husband complain about the seats *one more time* or get stuck in another 2 hour drive from Silverthorne to the tunnel. Then, all bets are off. Best case, I hold off for a few years and we accumulate a solid down payment so that when the Summit County bubble bursts, or the next recession hits, we have enough of a down payment to get a toehold there. But that's a whole separate discussion.
 

Muleski

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@Monique, the two best online info sources, IMO, are:

www.SubaruOutback.org
www.legacyGT.com

The Legacy GT has the same engine as your car. The forums are broken out by model, engine type etc.
BTW, the forums are loaded with discussion on turbo failure, turbo replacement. etc.

If you decide to replace the turbo, or are "forced to", I would never, never, put a used on on the car. Bad move. You will no doubt read about that.

I completely understand the need to ponder....a lot. And I hope you get where I am coming from. I am 63, and know cars. I bought a Subie Legacy GT, as I had a VW Passat W8 Wagon that I had to unload before the 100K warranty expired {talk about a ticking time bomb}, and I wanted a "reliable Subie wagon." We had owned one at the time, my daughter's 2002 H-6 VDC Outback {which was a great car...pre-rust}. So, I liked the way it drove, and bought it.

I bet I put at least $5K into that LGT, after the warranty expired. That may be underestimating it.

Best of luck!
 

Dwight

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BTW, my brother swears that the GMC's have always had a better build quality than the Chevy, which has never made sense to me.
As someone who lived 15 miles away from the truck factory in Janesville, WI, The only differences was the front grill they put on at the end of the line. :)
 

Muleski

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As someone who lived 15 miles away from the truck factory in Janesville, WI, The only differences was the front grill they put on at the end of the line. :)

That has always been my impression. Just the cosmetics, badges, etc. Funny, as I have heard the "Buy a GMC Suburban" a number of times, and thought to myself, Why?

Thanks for that info!
 

Dwight

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The Suburban class, Sequoia, and Land Cruiser all look very tasty. They have available big engines, 4WD, good clearance, should (pending investigation) be able to handle my cargo requirements, and fit my aesthetic sensibilities. They are all, of course, freaking expensive new, and not exactly cheap old. And now @Muleski has me thinking about the lifespan of my Outback. It would suck to buy a huge vehicle and then have my "parking garage friendly" commuter vehicle blow up.

Unless things have changed, Texas your place to get used Suburban. Most common vehicle and many are nice fleet vehicles being switched every few years.
 
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