Love the ice?

[KevinF]

These various "ice" definitions get a little out of hand... I usually ski at Stowe which can certainly get "bad", but in my experience, slopes get closed when they're so icy that a fall would result in an uncontrollable slide. I've seen Stowe be so icy that it looks like a mirror in the morning sun and the only trails they had open were a handful of groomers that they had run the tillers over multiple times.

Basically, even the late afternoon groomers that have gotten into scraped-down crap state still have a few random piles of snow (ice shavings...) on the edges to work with.

I used to have a pair of FIS slalom skis; they're certainly fun, but the number of days that I experienced that were so bad that they shined were pretty limited.

I'm differentiating between white ice that you can't make any sort of mark on with a pole tip vs. "clear" ice. It sounds like some of you encounter clear ice with regularity... In my experience, clear ice is impossible. The videos posted above by Deb, etc. aren't even remotely in the conversation of even white ice.

 

[mdf]

These various "ice" definitions get a little out of hand... I usually ski at Stowe which can certainly get "bad", but in my experience, slopes get closed when they're so icy that a fall would result in an uncontrollable slide. I've seen Stowe be so icy that it looks like a mirror in the morning sun and the only trails they had open were a handful of groomers that they had run the tillers over multiple times.

That usually true, but I had my "best" ice day ever at Stowe. Somebody had messed up the grooming vs weather timing, so Liftline was a sheer, smooth sheet except for the frozen chop at far right under the chair. It was so smooth and solid that I when I tried to hockey stop it slowed me to walking speed but no further.
The only way I was able to stop was to point my skis back downhill and make one careful, very smooth carved turn till I was traveling perpendicular to the fall line.

I saw several people slide off the side -- fortunately no one straight down.

 

[KevinF]

That usually true, but I had my "best" ice day ever at Stowe. Somebody had messed up the grooming vs weather timing, so Liftline was a sheer, smooth sheet except for the frozen chop at far right under the chair. It was so smooth and solid that I when I tried to hockey stop it slowed me to walking speed but no further.
The only way I was able to stop was to point my skis back downhill and make one careful, very smooth carved turn till I was traveling perpendicular to the fall line.

I saw several people slide off the side -- fortunately no one straight down.

Impossible. Stowe never messes up the grooming vs. weather timing.

I remember at one of the Stowe ESA's I was in Mike Rogan's group. It had snowed the night before and Liftline looked really nice first thing but we were practicing whatever on easier terrain. Liftline kept looking worse on every lift ride up until sometime that afternoon and Rogan suggested that we should ski it.

NOW??? We got to the bottom and Mike laughed said "that was absolutely terrible. We're doing it again". We skied Liftline four or five times in a row. To Rogan's credit, each time it got a little easier. Skiing ice is very much a mind game; you find a little more faith to trust your edges.

The other time I remember Liftline being icy was when I was skiing a few laps with Lord Voldemort. Liftline was top-to-bottom shiny ice bumps -- like, just NO. Josh dropped in and I went around. I did beat him down by about one turn. I was in awe.

 

[crgildart]

Agreed.. The "skiable" windblown/refrozen/scraped off stuff gets more treacherous the less sharp your skis and skills are. It's a spectrum of pretty manageable on tuned SL and GS skis to mostly manageable but tails washing out some here and there on mid 80s skis to the legit sleet/frozen puddles junk that they have to close the trail because certain doom awaits most who venture there..

 

[Uncle-A]

I just remembered I had this somewhere, from a race warmup long ago, seems appropriate to add a visual or rather an audio cue

Those are some good turns, I have a question? I am not sure if I missed it but I didn't see any pole plants. Was that intentional?

 

[crgildart]

Those are some good turns, I have a question? I am not sure if I missed it but I didn't see any pole plants. Was that intentional?

New school technique.. No more reach out pole "plants".. Just little tippy taps off to the side nowadays..

 

[Uncle-A]

New school technique.. No more reach out pole "plants".. Just little tippy taps off to the side nowadays..

I didn't even see that.

 

[Tony Storaro]

I just remembered I had this somewhere, from a race warmup long ago, seems appropriate to add a visual or rather an audio cue

These are not high edge angles. What you got on your profile pic are.

 

[crgildart]

I didn't even see that.

Tippy Tap off to the side.. Watch it again and you will see the very subtle taps..

 

[Atomicman]

Of course you edges must be prepared properly, but that is just one element of successful skiing on ice. it is mostly about technique and of course steepness and tactics.

The steeper the icy slope, the more difficult it is to carve and some icy slopes are just too steep to carve the top of the turn for mere mortals.

It is these slopes that I use redirection at the top of the turn and carve the bottom of the turn. An offensive drift at the top of the turn, when you are light on your skis rather than a defensive skid at the bottom of the turn when you are heavy on your skis.

If you are pressuring the ski incorrectly, I don't care how sharp your edges are you are going to get chatter. And the steeper the pitch the worse it is.

The key is not to attempt to push your edges straight down into the snow, you must let the tips hook up in the opposite direction of your intended turn direction. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but if you are turning left you must LET your tips hook up to the right.

I had an in depth discussion on this very subject with the Head Coach for Crystal Mountain Alpine Club. Ex world cupper and Nor am Downhill Champ.

We were both getting chatter underfoot on a fairly steep incline on an icy day. Now this is hard to explain when you are not here in front of me, but he took his hands with arms slightly extended to the right, as though they were the tips of his skis, and pushed them away to the right and slightly down to make a turn to the left.

This is not an easy skill to learn, but if you can understand it it will transform your icy skiing.

 

[Uncle-A]

Tippy Tap off to the side.. Watch it again and you will see the very subtle taps..

View attachment 148030

It looks more like a drag of the pole than a tap.

 

[Scruffy]

I'll just leave this here:

Chris Davenport skiing a very icy Tuckerman's Ravine. At 1:40ish you can see the sheen of ice at the top of the Ravine. Notice how they approach that ice.

 

[James]

^ It’s dumb in May to not bring crampons if you’re going to hike the headwall. Midwinter, let’s just assume they gave Harrison some. So he didn’t end up choppered by the Coast Guard to a hospital, like the guy this year Memorial Day weekend.

 

[slowrider]

Of course you edges must be prepared properly, but that is just one element of successful skiing on ice. it is mostly about technique and of course steepness and tactics.

The steeper the icy slope, the more difficult it is to carve and some icy slopes are just too steep to carve the top of the turn for mere mortals.

It is these slopes that I use redirection at the top of the turn and carve the bottom of the turn. An offensive drift at the top of the turn, when you are light on your skis rather than a defensive skid at the bottom of the turn when you are heavy on your skis.

If you are pressuring the ski incorrectly, I don't care how sharp your edges are you are going to get chatter. And the steeper the pitch the worse it is.

The key is not to attempt to push your edges straight down into the snow, you must let the tips hook up in the opposite direction of your intended turn direction. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but if you are turning left you must LET your tips hook up to the right.

I had an in depth discussion on this very subject with the Head Coach for Crystal Mountain Alpine Club. Ex world cupper and Nor am Downhill Champ.

We were both getting chatter underfoot on a fairly steep incline on an icy day. Now this is hard to explain when you are not here in front of me, but he took his hands with arms slightly extended to the right, as though they were the tips of his skis, and pushed them away to the right and slightly down to make a turn to the left.

This is not an easy skill to learn, but if you can understand it it will transform your icy skiing.

That's good to know, the steep icy cannot carve. I feel so dirty skidding part of the turn. Maybe this season I will have a break through.

 

[Atomicman]

That's good to know, the steep icy cannot carve. I feel so dirty skidding part of the turn. Maybe this season I will have a break through.

The question SR is which segment of the turn are you skidding! Drift the top and carve the bottom!

 

[Chris V.]

I've seen Stowe be so icy that it looks like a mirror in the morning sun and the only trails they had open were a handful of groomers that they had run the tillers over multiple times.

I thought they never closed that stuff back east. Disappointing!

I remember just one day years ago at the Valley Formerly Known as Squaw that scared the crap out of me. They'd groomed everything, then the surface melted overnight, then it turned very cold again and it all froze up. They had half the groomers roped off, which is something I'd never seen before or since. But Sibo Bowl was open. I got on the groomed part and was immediately flailing for any grip whatsoever. Managed to avoid going into a death slide, and skittered over to the side of the run as best I could to find something I could hold onto. Then gingerly made my way to the bottom. Did not repeat. As I remember it, for that one time I had the run all to myself.

 

[razie]

Meh, I'd call that more scraped off and windblown or refrozen spring morning kinda icy than "bulletproof ice" like you'd get following a sleet event. I ski stuff like that all the time without batting an eye..

Yeah, it was 2 days of rain followed by a -25C overnight. Common around our parts... Whatever you want to call that thing that the skis don't leave a mark on.

I can't see if he's batting either eye honestly. Can you tell?

 

[razie]

Those are some good turns, I have a question? I am not sure if I missed it but I didn't see any pole plants. Was that intentional?

Good calling that out yeah, there's some faint pole taps in there, for good measure.

 

[razie]

An interesting question on whether solid ice/hardpack requires more or less angles than the equivalent radius turn on say good snow... What do you think?

There is a point to be made that lacking plastic deformation, it puts more energy back and bends the ski more so less angles are required for the same radius at the same speed?

Also, being harder to I guess penetrate or grip, would it require less ski angles with more angulation rather than maxed out angles with less angulation? You know, normal force and all that?

 

[François Pugh]

I once drove an hour and a half (60 miles of back road) through freezing rain (School busses weren't running so I borrowed my dad's car to go skiing), only to find the whole place was closed (Calabogie Peaks).