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Moguls and foot pressure

crgildart

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It's instinctive, especially on steep bumpy rutted terrain to take a defensive posture with your feet out in front downhill of the rest of your body blocking. That only works when you actually throw them sideways and stop though. if you keep going you just end up back seat and getting bounced around worse and worse the more speed you pick up.

Solution is ALWAYS always ALWAYS ski that terrain with an aggressive hands and chest and especially KNEES forward posture. Takes awhile to get comfortable because it's against our self preservation instincts when we're a little afraid or intimidated by the task at hand. But the response of defensive blocking puts you in more danger than sucking it up and getting the "I'm gonna crush this" mindset.
 

Rod9301

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Not calling you out Sanity, but just pointing out that instruction that is devoid of the specific movements that create the "input" is less valuable in my view. The "stay forward on your cuffs" is an outcome, not the movement that creates that. What movement are you suggesting in order to stay forward on your cuffs?
Pull the feet back
 

Seldomski

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In moguls I generally try to ride a flatter ski and, just after absorption of the mogul, use more pivoting and rotary motions to initiate the turn.
Flatter is good, but rotary and pivoting are not the way to initiate turns in moguls. When you absorb, that is also when you are moving to the new edges, rolling your feet and apply tip pressure. The skis will turn very quickly by being on the new edge with pressure on the edge. This front pressure will also slow you as slide down the backside of the mogul.

If you are thinking of absorb and turn initiation as separate moves, then you are already cooked. Best you can do there is traverse and try again on the next. Or full stop and start over.

It may look like freestyle/competition mogul skiers are pivoting their way down, but that is not what is really happening. It's the quick edge change with tip pressure that makes the turn. Their skis are also very narrow which helps roll to the new edge very fast.
 

Noodler

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Pull the feet back

Yep, that's my preference (as I think most who frequent this site already know). I always ask questions about actual movements that create the inputs and often get some puzzled looks. I skied with a PSIA L3 last weekend who surprisingly asked me for feedback on his skiing. We got into a discussion of fore/aft management. I asked him what movements he uses to get/stay forward and he only offered "ankle closing" (dorsiflexion). Then he showed me how he gets his knees forward by leaning over the front of his skis with his upper body as he closed his ankle joint. He was fairly adamant that closing the ankles was all you need. At that point I just kind of nodded and moved along down the slope. I just didn't think I was going to be able to help him.
 

geepers

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It may look like freestyle/competition mogul skiers are pivoting their way down, but that is not what is really happening. It's the quick edge change with tip pressure that makes the turn.

Sometimes wonder if we set the wrong expectations. That may be what's happening in some situations but it depends what they are skiing.

Watch the tips in this sequence - they are in the air through at least 90 degrees of the turn. Practically every turn in this section of the run was like that.

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Or this run. Great to step through the turns frame at a time. His skis going through, say, 150 degrees side to side and the 1st 70-80 degrees the tips are off the snow. Pivoting surely has to be in the mix?

 

LiquidFeet

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Sometimes wonder if we set the wrong expectations. That may be what's happening in some situations but it depends what they are skiing.

Watch the tips in this sequence - they are in the air through at least 90 degrees of the turn. Practically every turn in this section of the run was like that.

View attachment 148506
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Or this run. Great to step through the turns frame at a time. His skis going through, say, 150 degrees side to side and the 1st 70-80 degrees the tips are off the snow. Pivoting surely has to be in the mix?

Yes, the tips are in the air. Good catch. And there's some pivoting going on in those frames. I can see it.

But the waists and tails aren't in the air. That's enough contact to allow the shoulders of the bumps to turn the skis.

He's targeting those skis to just the right spot on each bump to get his skis to go where he wants them to go next. And keeping as much ski-snow contact as possible to make this work.
 
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geepers

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That's enough contact to allow the shoulders of the bumps to turn him.

I think that aspect is under-appreciated. There was a bonus tip in the 1st TG mogul vid of taking a bump with the the back of the skis. The weight is positioned at the bindings so the skis pivot around the bump from the tails. He later mentioned it's use in some commentary of comp bumps.

Began using that last time on snow (but much less dynamics than those two comp skiers above). It was very effective way to pivot the skis and didn't need much effort. :cool: People should try it.

Can also use the bumps to steer the tips - same principle, can be a tougher balancing act. Not recommended when there's frozen chicken heads and ice cookies around. :eek:
 

Seldomski

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@geepers - In the video, it looks to me like the turn is started with rolling the knees when fully compressed/absorbed. This changes the edges and starts the ski turn. The tip then drags down the backside to offer some speed control and further turns the ski to nearly across the fall line. The slam into a mogul can help start the next turn as well - the tails stop abruptly on the mogul face with the tip unsupported. This spins the ski around, helping with the start of the next turn. This is sort of an emergency move. The knee roll at full absorb, full weight to new outside, and tip pressure is really the way you want to be doing it most of the time. That move also works at really low speeds and can be practiced on groomer as a retraction turn.
 
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After you crest the bump, straighten your core as if you're falling on your knees. Stay forward on your cuffs, and the extension is done for you with no more effort as the skis level out underneath you. This gives you speed control and extension with very little energy output. Instead of thinking about your tails or hockey stops to slow you down, think about the tip biting in on the backside, slicing across and driving into the trough straightening out your legs.

Pull the feet back
What type of groomer drills do you all recommend for working on these specific moves? Not to many moguls out there early season.
 

Seldomski

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What type of groomer drills do you all recommend for working on these specific moves? Not to many moguls out there early season.
I think my biggest issues are absorption and quickness. So short turns and especially retraction transition are good to work on. Whatever really wakes up the feet and makes me flex my knees a lot. Creating that same urgency to turn quickly outside the mogul run is hard. Look at some of @recbumper posts for more specific drills.
 

Scruffy

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What type of groomer drills do you all recommend for working on these specific moves? Not to many moguls out there early season.

Search for and watch videos of Stephen Fearing teaching in Japan. There are a lot of flat terrain drills you can learn from watching those vids.
 

Rod9301

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What type of groomer drills do you all recommend for working on these specific moves? Not to many moguls out there early season.
On groomers, pull your feet back in the transition between turns.

One drill that you see mogul skis do, on a mellow slope, makes as many turns as possible, verry quick, and shallow.
 

SSSdave

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Per @geepers post #29 video of skier Cavet, watch the sequence between 0:34 and 0:41. That clearly shows what is often happening in comp mogul skiing due to the judged speed requirement that is a negative for technique. And such has been happening for years resulting in many skiers with powerful legs maximizing speed air slamming in style bump to bump. Ironically this thread is about downward foot pressure maintaining ski to snow contact after cresting bumps.

That noted, comp bump skiers can maintain snow contact though if snow is soft enough as in the video, they don't need to keep snow contact with airing bump to bump obviously less resistive thus faster. More important is keeping consistent the dynamic varying side to side small acute angle from direct forward and mind game of where ski centered peak compression as in landing will be.

@geepers >>>"...Sometimes wonder if we set the wrong expectations. That may be what's happening in some situations but it depends what they are skiing..."

This is one factor why there is such a general divide between comp bump skiing and rec bump skiing that many in the former camp that have dominated instruction, have been so slow to understand. In fact skiing body mechanics are complex and bump skiing mechanics more so than generally explained. As careful video analysis like TG has been focusing on evolves, there is more that will surprise many who thought they had it figured out.
 

Crank

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Agree that WC zipper line skiing is not "normal" bump skiing.

I notice a bunch of you ski-talkers talk about pulling your heels back. I always thing of forcing my skis shovels down the downhill side of a mogul. Got this from a Nelson Charmichael video (remember him?) I had a long time ago, back in VHS days.

Is it the same thing ? Does it accomplish the same goal? I mostly ski moguls OK.
 

Sanity

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What type of groomer drills do you all recommend for working on these specific moves? Not to many moguls out there early season.
In my mind, mogul skiing comes down to the turn, which is the same turn to be practiced on a groomed run. I've pursued a particular style of mogul skiing that is direct and takes a particular type of turn. It's an easy turn to do on the groomed, but hardly anyone does it. It's worth spending a year, several hours each day doing these turns down the groomed. After you have it perfectly drilled, it's a neat feeling when you realize that you've automatically done this turn in the bumps, just combined with A&E. Normally, I wouldn't bother trying to explain this turn, because many others want you to do a different type of turn. Then we'd argue when people tell me my turn is a terrible turn to do. But, since you asked me specifically, I will give you my opinion.

Narrow stance, weight shift, tip the ski with knee angulation, shoulders square facing down the hill, hands in front flicking the pole plant out to the front, continuous cuff pressure throughout the entire turn (by pulling the feet back with the glutes and hamstrings, don't want to be reprimanded by Noodler again)

If you skip a few seemingly tiny details, the entire thing falls apart. The point is to get the ski to pop in a quick turn all on it's own. If the technique isn't right, the ski won't pop, and the turn will be too slow for the bump line.

If you let the shoulders lean, then you've decreased your hip angulation which decreases the edge angles. Since we're very upright with very low edge angles to begin with, that tiny bit of difference causes the ski grip to decrease, so the ski smears instead of pops, and it won't come around in time. So, you really do need to pinch the grape between the rib cage and the hips to keep the shoulders level. It does make a difference.

Forward pressure is huge, because it gives speed control with the tip biting in, and also the skis pop faster, so keep those hands out front (while still comfortable), not to the side. Every bit of COM forward helps as long as you're in a productive athletic stance that's comfortable and relaxed.

Upper and lower body separation is absolutely necessary to tip the ski with enough edge angle and forward pressure, otherwise ski won't pop.

Even for people that can start a turn with forward pressure, it's very common for them to release that pressure at the end of the turn, but then you lose your speed control. Keep the pressure on the cuff all the way until you step to the new ski. Let the ski do the work. If you have trouble dialing in this groomed run turn then do Javelin turns with continuous forward pressure and the hands pointing down the hill diagonally across the skis.

The end result is that the upper body is 100% stable while the lower body just steps from cuff to cuff with knee angulation. Looks like this. No worries if it's not your cup of tea, each to their own style.



Here's the Javelin Turn drill demonstrated by Patrick Deneen. Notice the constant shin pressure until the step to the new ski. You can do it with more exaggerated upper body separation.

 
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Guy in Shorts

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Running the bumps all week here at Killington as we do get some early lines. Gets me off the groomed White Ribbon were the racers are using their edges for acceleration. Small daily powder refreshes gave a real winter feel. Soft spring like conditions today reminded me that I am far from full season endurance.

IMG_1391.jpg
 

Marker

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Running the bumps all week here at Killington as we do get some early lines. Gets me off the groomed White Ribbon were the racers are using their edges for acceleration. Small daily powder refreshes gave a real winter feel. Soft spring like conditions today reminded me that I am far from full season endurance.

View attachment 148760
I was trying to run those bumps on opening weekend to wake my legs up and remember where we left off in late April on Skyelark and Superstar! I sucked, but less than I feared.

I have nothing to offer this thread, but I do read the mogul threads because I want to explore more of the mountain more easily.
 

Seldomski

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@Sanity great video and input, especially the groomer short turn. The advice/drills for skiing moguls is going to diverge a bit depending on who you ask and their opinions on style (freestyle or PSIA or PMTS or ....?). That is because there are multiple good ways to ski bumps and none are correct (unless a clock is involved), they are just different. The ski performance in the videos from Sanity's groomer video is very different from what you see in a Tom Gellie video for short turn groomer skiing. You can take either into the bumps and have fun, but the look will be very different between the two. Each style has particular bump shapes it's particularly good at. The key really is a bomb proof short turn with good upper/lower body separation. That will get you through most fields in a direct line.

There is also a more meandering approach where you aren't turning as much, absorption is not as important, and you control speed with line and finesse. More medium turns with flowing line, back up the hill in some cases. That works really well on very steep bump runs. It gets more into tactics than physicality of some of the other styles. I think that was what @KingGrump was alluding to in this and other threads... corrections welcome.
 
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Rdputnam515

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Flatter is good, but rotary and pivoting are not the way to initiate turns in moguls. When you absorb, that is also when you are moving to the new edges, rolling your feet and apply tip pressure. The skis will turn very quickly by being on the new edge with pressure on the edge. This front pressure will also slow you as slide down the backside of the mogul.

If you are thinking of absorb and turn initiation as separate moves, then you are already cooked. Best you can do there is traverse and try again on the next. Or full stop and start over.

It may look like freestyle/competition mogul skiers are pivoting their way down, but that is not what is really happening. It's the quick edge change with tip pressure that makes the turn. Their skis are also very narrow which helps roll to the new edge very fast.
I like this description.

that edge movement down the back side of the mogul is key IMO. Mosley talks about this the quicker you can get that ski on edge back their the better you control your speed. If you get too late you pic up speed very quickly and blow up. IME
 

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