Need technique/advice for skiing canyon/cliff type mogul formations in steep terrain

[Crank]

Above is nce skiing for sure but that is not "skiing the slow line fast". It is smoother and prettier than zipperline and is similar to how I mostly approach moguls.

 

[no edge]

Which, zipperline?

That's the slow line fast (the vid). Fast is relative. The point is, he is arcing his turns thus the meandering turns are the slow line but he is skiing it relatively fast. His skiing can't be compared to competitive bump skiing. Fast is not real fast in that example.

Just my take.

 

[WildBillD]

@KingGrump

Hop turns are seldom required for skiing bumps.

I would argue that hop turns can be done with retraction -where retraction is an essential skill for bump skiing

 

[KingGrump]

retraction is an essential skill for bump skiing

Can't agree with you on that one neither.

 

[Crank]

Any zipperline I guess.

My understanding when we say slow line fast is means long radius turns taking up a lot more width on the slope than short swing or short linked turns. Like I said, he's not zipperlining, just skiing bumps in what I would call a normal manner.

However good his skiing is it doesn't have much to do with the OP of " canyon/cliff type mogul formations in steep terrain.

 

[dbostedo]

My understanding when we say slow line fast is means long radius turns taking up a lot more width on the slope than short swing or short linked turns.

I don't think that's it, really. Maybe in practice it seems that way I guess. But slow line fast means using turn shape to control speed, and not using braking movements. I.e. go ahead and ski fast, but use complete turns (even uphill) to control the speed as much as you want. You could ski short radius turns and call it slow line fast if that's the speed control you want for that line, and you're making good turns.

 

[Crank]

Yes turn shape is just longer and you are right about the no braking and uphill to scrub speed. That is my normal thing in groomers and you do get going fast but I don't ever see it as short turns.

 

[Ken_R]

I am a fairly competent mogul skier on moderate blacks with requiste separation and pivot slip skills. Can do dolphin like absorbion/retraction movements on blue moguls. These types of dolphin like turns are more reactive, then practiced. So I really can't say that I have dolphin turn skills because I usually don't plan ahead for it as a tactic - it just happens

Where I have trouble is adapting to steep terrain, with moguls that have sidewalls that resemble a a canyon mesa, fairly flat base with sheer dropoffs on front and sides of the moguls. These types of moguls formations, present a problem for me, I can not slip down the side, nor ski upon the side of an adjacent mogul because of almost vertical side walls of the moguls. I am not fast enough to ski a zipper line on very steep terrain, nor do 2 consecutive 180 degree ski pivots to slow down and enter the trough at its most shallowest point.( maybe this is something I should practice?). I usually can manage one 180 degree ski pivot to either side regularly in my current tactics.

The mogul formations I am talking about, are those one would encounter dropping into Screech OWL from the top of Grouse mountain at Beaver Creek, or those encountered at the bottom of "little Ollie" or "Heavey Metal" in Blue Sky Basin at Vail.

Any advice on tecnhique or tactics would be appreciated.

thanks in advance.

I know EXACTLY the runs you are talking about and they are hell for me unless its a warn day and they r soft. Ditto with steep n deep in Blue Sky. Mogulled up steep tree runs are horrible.

Shorter more flexible skis on the narrow end help a ton there. Unfortunately i dont own skis like that so I avoid those areas like the plague

 

[mdf]

Above is nce skiing for sure but that is not "skiing the slow line fast". It is smoother and prettier than zipperline and is similar to how I mostly approach moguls.

Which, zipperline?

That's the slow line fast (the vid). Fast is relative. The point is, he is arcing his turns thus the meandering turns are the slow line but he is skiing it relatively fast. His skiing can't be compared to competitive bump skiing. Fast is not real fast in that example.

Just my take.

I finally watched the video. I agree it is great skiing, but I would call that a "direct line." It's not competitive style, but it's most of the way to zipperline.

I think the key classifying detail is what dominates your speed control: absorption or where you finish your turns.

 

[no edge]

The slow line is not the most direct line. Competition bumpers ski the fast line. It's the direct line. Our skier is skiing turns that are out side the fast line. He is skiing the slow line with wider turns. If he were skiing the fast-line his line would be much more direct. As far as speed is concerned, if he was skiing the fast line he would be ripping the fall-line. Skiing the slow line fast does not equal the fastest way down. Fast skiing in the slow line is never going to be that fast, but it is very fast none the less. I really like the slow line fast. As an older skier it feels good to pick a line that doesn't kick your ax

Good Level III bump skiers ski the slow line fast. When the skis come around like that, it is the line. If you see great skier in the bumps and his skis are coming around - that's the slow line. He or she is still skiing the fall line. I consider it to be fantastic skiing. The zipperline can be either. But think about the line that competitive bumpers take.

 

[mdf]

The slow line is not the most direct line. Competition bumpers ski the fast line. It's the direct line. Our skier is skiing turns that are out side the fast line. He is skiing the slow line with wider turns. If he were skiing the fast-line his line would be much more direct. As far as speed is concerned, if he was skiing the fast line he would be ripping the fall-line. Skiing the slow line fast does not equal the fastest way down. Fast skiing in the slow line is never going to be that fast, but it is very fast none the less. I really like the slow line fast. As an older skier it feels good to pick a line that doesn't kick your ax

Good Level III bump skiers ski the slow line fast. When the skis come around like that, it is the line. If you see great skier in the bumps and his skis are coming around - that's the slow line. He or she is still skiing the fall line. I consider it to be fantastic skiing. The zipperline can be either. But think about the line that competitive bumpers take.

i understand. It is definitely a slower line than the competition line. I'm just saying there is an even slower line, and that even slower line is what most of us mean by "the" slow line.

 

[mister moose]

If it's the even slower line, maybe it's the route, you're no longer in the line.

 

[WildBillD]

Can't agree with you on that one neither.

@KingGrump
retraction to me means the abdominal muscles and hip flexors do the work of pulling the trunk forward and legs up in order to stay in balance. In ski instructor circles, one can argue the back part of the infinity move, or pulling back the boot under the hip with active flexing.

I fundamentally agree that having the skis leaving the snow in bumps is a bad idea, Bump skiing is all about adjusting fore and aft balance throughout a turn
While I am by no means an expert or even a a novice at dolphin turns, Here is Mike Hafer former PSIA demo team member demonstrating a Dolphin turn. Dolphin turns iIMHO can be a form of a hop turn done with retraction and pressure management on the fore and aft part of the ski. Whether in the air or on snow, the dolphin turn movement pattern is the same. as shown in the video below.


In the video Mike clearly demonstrates what I call retraction
at frames 1:121 on the snow and 1:39 -1:44 in the air. The air portion, I believe is done for a better visual effect of what is happening on the snow. - for me at least.
If one can launch a dolphin turn in bumps and get air, more power to them. Not my goal.

I often practice classical hop turns, because I find it activates the core more agressively and enhances upper body -lower body seperation more than pivot slips. Plus it requires blocking pole plant engagement.
Do I use classical hop turns in the bumps? -well maybe in narrow spaces with staircase-like bumps, but not typically.

In normal bump skiing, I can feel that the dolphin turn patterns someting emerges in my turns (occasionally) without trying - it just haapens but not often enough, I have not had great success when I consciously focus on doing it all the time. I'm not quick enough

 

[Ken_R]

Take a trip to Crested Butte on your epic pass and spend lots of time skiing the steep terrain. You'll be forced to develop different tactics than you use on moderate-pitch bump runs. The bumps will teach you how to ski them with enough mileage.

CB's steep terrain is just plain crazy. Best training ground for skiing steep bumps and weird terrain in the nation. I mean, whens its all open. Aspen and Aspen Highlands also offer some insanity.

 

[KingGrump]

retraction to me means the abdominal muscles and hip flexors do the work of pulling the trunk forward and legs up in order to stay in balance.

Around here in Taos, we call that the Picket fence. Coined by a former SSD.
It's not really a retraction move when the core move forward at the top of the bump to re-center over the skis. It's more of a extension move.
Pulling the skis back under the core can be view almost as a retraction move to re-center fore and aft. Most think of retraction as a vertical movement of the knee/leg.
I usually employ both the picket fence and pulling the skis back in combination for re-centering in the bump.

BTW, them dolphin turns looks exhausting. May have to give up skiing if I gotta do that.

 

[WildBillD]

@KingGrump
"Around here in Taos, we call that the Picket fence. Coined by a former SSD.
It's not really a retraction move when the core move forward at the top of the bump to re-center over the skis. It's more of a extension move.
Pulling the skis back under the core can be view almost as a retraction move to re-center fore and aft. Most think of retraction as a vertical movement of the knee/leg.
I usually employ both the picket fence and pulling the skis back in combination for re-centering in the bump."

If you do not pull your upper body forward, gravity will not pull it forward and down fast enough to compensate for how quickly your legs are being pushed up and you end up on your heels. So I guess we can argue at which point the legs extend or flex. It's like skiing in a tunnel where the head never bobs up to hit the ceiling., and the terrain in the tunnel is uneven.

WRT to retraction and the infinity move(riding a bicycle backwards), this video by deb Amstrong and her mogul coach describes when and where the retraction takes place and how they do it..


I have tried the Dolphin turn exerciss in my previous post on flat terrain , and you are correct, they are just as exhausting as classical hop turns. However, I was told that the dolphin hop in bumps is aided by rebound from the ski, and much easier than on the flats. Dunno

I basically agree with you with clarifications as noted.

 

[no edge]

I have played around with Dolphin turns. I would not encourage anyone who is learning or in the process of getting better in bumps to use Dolphin turns. There is so much to work on... so many ways to get better - I don't do anything in that area of skiing. You never see bump skiers using Dolphin turns unless it's an obscure drill. Stay in the line and ski the slow line fast. It really works.

"PSIA demo team member demonstrating a Dolphin turn" from 113 above. It's a demo move.

 

[markojp]

@KingGrump

I would argue that hop turns can be done with retraction -where retraction is an essential skill for bump skiing

Retracting and hop turns are pretty different creatures. Keep the skis on the snow. Very few people are fit enough to hop turn, say, gun barrel at Heavenly.

 

[Alexzn]

CB's steep terrain is just plain crazy. Best training ground for skiing steep bumps and weird terrain in the nation. I mean, whens its all open. Aspen and Aspen Highlands also offer some insanity.

I will stack Squaw's West Far terrain and comparable other areas on the mountain against any steep mogul terrain in the world.

Sometimes the moguls are just too nasty or too steep to ski a clean fast line, so you need to adjust the line to control speed and balance. In those conditions I try to spend as little time in the trough as possible, because (a) it is the hardest place to control speed, and (b) why ski where everybody else skis? The only person I even saw skiing a fast clean line through nasty West Face moguls was Jonny Moseley, and even he had to stop mid-way.

 

[SpeedyKevin]

I will stack Squaw's West Far terrain and comparable other areas on the mountain against any steep mogul terrain in the world.

Sometimes the moguls are just too nasty or too steep to ski a clean fast line, so you need to adjust the line to control speed and balance. In those conditions I try to spend as little time in the trough as possible, because (a) it is the hardest place to control speed, and (b) why ski where everybody else skis? The only person I even saw skiing a fast clean line through nasty West Face moguls was Jonny Moseley, and even he had to stop mid-way.

When Moseley needs to stop, you know its rough haha