Passenger All-Weather Tires with 3PMSF aka "4season" tires discussion

[johnnyvw]

I have Quatrac Pros on my 2020 VW Tiguan. I upgraded the wheels to 19 inchers and got these tires for summer use (stock 17" wheels have Blizzaks for winter use). My wife has had Quatrac 5's on her 2017 Alltrack since 2019, and they were very good so went with the Pro for my car. Right now I have approx. 30k miles on them and they still have plenty of tread left. They have been excellent in wet weather, the biggest downside is they are VERY noisy on a lot of different pavement, the worst being concrete. The 5's were much quieter, so not sure if its the tread design or the extra width on my tires

 

[François Pugh]

 

[tball]

I love his reviews, but this one misses the key element of ice traction.

Based on that review, there isn't much need for a pure winter tire, as the CC2 does nearly as well in snow. What's missing is how much better the X-ice is on icy roads.

Consumer Reports also rates the CC2 and X-ice as both excellent in snow traction, but the CC2 is two levels below the X-ice in ice braking. The X-ice has "excellent" ice braking, while the CC2 only has "good" ice braking, which is below the "very good" rating.

In a picture:

For me, ice braking is the most important winter tire attribute, as I think it's what is most likely to keep you out of an accident.

 

[cantunamunch]

For me, ice braking is the most important winter tire attribute, as I think it's what is most likely to keep you out of an accident.

Agreed.

Never mind worrying about accidents, I just want to keep my ABS activation to a minimum. It's annoying AF when it has to activate at every 10mph downhill stop sign.

 

[snwbrdr]

Agreed.

Never mind worrying about accidents, I just want to keep my ABS activation to a minimum. It's annoying AF when it has to activate at every 10mph downhill stop sign.

it tends to happen when the surface coefficient of friction is very low.

Try living up to a steep hill... it's scary to brake down a hill covered in snow, even plowed (and compacted snow), even when I had Nokian Hakkapeliitta RSI's.... where while ABS is pumping away, you're still going faster and faster down the hill until it levels out with the main road... repeat with chains (Spikes Spider Sport at that time), and control was a lot better.

 

[François Pugh]

It is a well documented fact that locked up brakes will stop quicker in deep snow or loose gravel. I have found through experiment, that on very slippery surfaces, such as smooth ice from freezing rain that has been polished by rain, and with a layer of water on top of it, locked brakes seem to stop faster than brakes with ABS engaged. Somewhere in between good traction and almost no traction, there might be a point where the ABS stops quicker, but I haven't found it.

However, you have no steering with a locked wheel. I have many pre-ABS memories of heading down a hill locking up the front brakes, while periodically unlocking them to regain directional control, hoping I would make the turn at the bottom. Hills are a bitch in these conditions, best avoided if at all possible, especially if you don't have good studded tires or chains.

 

[scott43]

From a Euro study...

A meta-analysis of research studies shows that ABS give a relatively small, but statistically significant reduction in the number of crashes, when all levels of severity and types of crashes are taken together. There are statistically significant increases in rollover, single-vehicle crashes and collisions with fixed objects. There are statistically significant decreases in collisions with pedestrians/ cyclists/ animals and collisions involving turning vehicles. ABS brakes do not appear to have any effect on rear-end collisions. However, while injury crashes decrease (-5%), fatal crashes increase (+6%) [15]. A recent study, however, indicates that anti-lock brakes may not contribute to crash prevention at all [13].

As with other forms of braking, the effectiveness of anti-lock braking depends upon road user behaviour. A German study found that ABS brakes can lead to changes in behaviour in the form of higher speeds and more aggressive driving [4]. It has also been suggested that the results to date may also be partly due to lack of knowledge or incorrect assumptions amongst car drivers about how ABS brakes actually function [9].

 

[tball]

It has also been suggested that the results to date may also be partly due to lack of knowledge or incorrect assumptions amongst car drivers about how ABS brakes actually function [9].

I wonder how many folks never experience ABS until an emergency, then panic and let off the brake when the pedal is pulsing.

I would hate to be without ABS in winter conditions. I have difficulty imagining a situation where I'd be better off without it.

 

[scott43]

Yeah and really it's nice to say you can stop faster without it but in an emergency situation with an average driver, can you? There have been campaigns in the past to educate drivers in how abs should be used but that message may get lost or forgotten, and it leads me back to my expectation that the vast majority of drivers never read the owners manual on their human guided missile...

 

[cantunamunch]

note to self: use more bedding terms when talking about people doing silly things

 

[James]

From a Euro study...

A meta-analysis of research studies shows that ABS give a relatively small, but statistically significant reduction in the number of crashes, when all levels of severity and types of crashes are taken together. There are statistically significant increases in rollover, single-vehicle crashes and collisions with fixed objects. There are statistically significant decreases in collisions with pedestrians/ cyclists/ animals and collisions involving turning vehicles. ABS brakes do not appear to have any effect on rear-end collisions. However, while injury crashes decrease (-5%), fatal crashes increase (+6%) [15]. A recent study, however, indicates that anti-lock brakes may not contribute to crash prevention at all [13].

As with other forms of braking, the effectiveness of anti-lock braking depends upon road user behaviour. A German study found that ABS brakes can lead to changes in behaviour in the form of higher speeds and more aggressive driving [4]. It has also been suggested that the results to date may also be partly due to lack of knowledge or incorrect assumptions amongst car drivers about how ABS brakes actually function [9].

Problem with initial study, maybe, is that cars with abs brakes are generally better cars than cars without. So even without the abs, the brake system, tires, handling, could be better.

Rear end collisions- can’t fix stupid.

 

[scott43]

note to self: use more bedding terms when talking about people doing silly things

That's kind of a blanket statement...

 

[cantunamunch]

That's kind of a blanket statement...

I have no shams.

 

[sparty]

Yeah and really it's nice to say you can stop faster without it but in an emergency situation with an average driver, can you? There have been campaigns in the past to educate drivers in how abs should be used but that message may get lost or forgotten, and it leads me back to my expectation that the vast majority of drivers never read the owners manual on their human guided missile...

In almost all conditions, modern ABS systems will beat any human driver. As mentioned, particularly below a certain speed and on loose surfaces, a locked wheel will stop more effectively than one insisting on maintaining rotation. My 2002 Suburban demonstrated this quite well when the wheelspeed sensor crapped out (a common issue with the model)—instead of disabling ABS below the normal threshold (perhaps 5 MPH?), it would keep pulsing even when locking the wheel would have been a far more effective option. Ski area parking lots got a bit terrifying until I got that sorted out.

My understanding is that, on a soft surface, the locked wheel effectively plows to a stop, whereas a wheel seeking to maintain grip causes the surface material to move, reduces braking force in order to maintain grip, and repeats for a much longer stopping distance.

Now, there is another factor on slippery surfaces insofar as most computerized driving aids expect that you want to maintain traction and aren't going to do things like use the throttle or handbrake to pivot the rear end around. If it were up to me, there'd be an reasonably easy way to adjust target thresholds and also independently disable the different systems (e.g. I'm perfectly happy with ABS on all the time, but I'd love to be able to completely disable stability control and traction management systems otherwise, without needing to be in 4Low).

 

[PinnacleJim]

I love his reviews, but this one misses the key element of ice traction.

Based on that review, there isn't much need for a pure winter tire, as the CC2 does nearly as well in snow. What's missing is how much better the X-ice is on icy roads.

Consumer Reports also rates the CC2 and X-ice as both excellent in snow traction, but the CC2 is two levels below the X-ice in ice braking. The X-ice has "excellent" ice braking, while the CC2 only has "good" ice braking, which is below the "very good" rating.

Every tire design is a balance of tradeoffs. The winter tire gives up dry and wet performance for performance on snow and ice. An all-weather tire like the CC2 is basically an all-season which tries to improve on winter performance but gives up some in dry and wet. A good UHP all-season comes close to the summer tire in the dry and wet, and come close to the all-weather in winter.

I get the priority for ice grip. But most of my winter driving is on dry or wet roads heading back and forth to VT. While there I can rely on good plowing at my condo complex, no big hills to deal with, and can take the shuttle to the mountain if its really snowing and I don't want to drive. I am good with an AWD vehicle with all-weather or all-seasons with good winter performance.

 

[François Pugh]

From a Euro study...

A meta-analysis of research studies shows that ABS give a relatively small, but statistically significant reduction in the number of crashes, when all levels of severity and types of crashes are taken together. There are statistically significant increases in rollover, single-vehicle crashes and collisions with fixed objects. There are statistically significant decreases in collisions with pedestrians/ cyclists/ animals and collisions involving turning vehicles. ABS brakes do not appear to have any effect on rear-end collisions. However, while injury crashes decrease (-5%), fatal crashes increase (+6%) [15]. A recent study, however, indicates that anti-lock brakes may not contribute to crash prevention at all [13].

As with other forms of braking, the effectiveness of anti-lock braking depends upon road user behaviour. A German study found that ABS brakes can lead to changes in behaviour in the form of higher speeds and more aggressive driving [4]. It has also been suggested that the results to date may also be partly due to lack of knowledge or incorrect assumptions amongst car drivers about how ABS brakes actually function [9].

I'm not surprised at the lack of reduction in rear end collisions; most of those are on roads where there is little place else to go before hitting whatever car is in front of them.
Also those familiar with a traction circle will know that adding ABS will not increase your ability to stop, but it may allow you to use some of that traction to turn. I suspect, in some cases it might be beneficial to use all of that traction to turn.
I believe I can beat the ABS in most cars on a good day. The trouble is, and I admit it, I'm not always having a good day. The ABS is consistently good.

 

[nay]

Canyon Sipe is nothing special. It has to have tread squirm in order for the 2 sides of the sipe to "lock" together to mimic a solid block. Other companies have their variations to do the same thing, and in many cases, less movement needed to lock together.

I had the Falken Wildpeak AT3W on a 2004 Sequoia in a 285/75/17 (34”) size that came with 20/32 tread depth, which is typically reserved for MT class tires.

I got north of $70K out of them, still at 8/32 tread, four winters, rotated them maybe 3 times, and they were fantastic. YMMV, mine hasn’t so far.

Nokian launched the Outpost ATP earlier this year, I’d say fairly obviously in response to the Falken. Same market, pretty much same general tread pattern. This looks like another good all weather choice for people who just can’t bear to buy a premium Japanese tire.

 

[johnnyvw]

Yeah and really it's nice to say you can stop faster without it but in an emergency situation with an average driver, can you? There have been campaigns in the past to educate drivers in how abs should be used but that message may get lost or forgotten, and it leads me back to my expectation that the vast majority of drivers never read the owners manual on their human guided missile...

When my daughter first started driving, I enrolled her in a program Tire Rack was sponsoring. Ran the kids through various emergency manuvures, such as lane change without knowing which direction they would have to turn until the last split second, wet skidpad, and braking at lock up threshold. Most kids had newer cars with ABS brakes, but my daughter had an older car wthout. After the first pass through, the instructor noticed she was braking "safely"...the next run he had her stand on them. Quite a cloud of tire smoke resulted...said to my self "atta girl" LOL. She was really resistant to going (although she did agree to it). Afterwards she thanked me for taking her, she really had her eyes opened. And had fun too!

 

[scott43]

I'm not sure people even take drivers ed anymore. Those winter driving courses and advanced driving courses are great. Should be standard.

 

[nay]

I'm not sure people even take drivers ed anymore. Those winter driving courses and advanced driving courses are great. Should be standard.

Except who is paying to have the population go to a winter driving course and take lessons? The backlog would be eternal. This is why the regulatory approach will always be passive safety systems like traction control and ABS.

People generally can’t learn how to drive in winter because the safety systems won’t let them, which is why people can’t control their vehicles when those systems fail.

Modern vehicles have no feedback to the driver. Tires that provide feedback that conditions are deteriorating may be safer than tires that have a sudden limit, even if that limit is higher, because the driver doesn’t slow down with the higher absolute traction. This is one reason I prefer a really good all weather tire, you get feedback a lot sooner to slow down without losing forward traction capability.

People I know in the insurance industry say things like “nobody knows how to even price car insurance right now” and “everybody is losing a lot of money”.

The first reason? “People are driving faster”. That’s an unintended consequence of the passive safety approach where the average driver in an average vehicle is driving at the perceived skill level of the vehicle that is being overstated by passive safety systems masking proper input.