Richi Berger. Just good skiing.

[razie]

A question for you... in his vid #22 (which looks like it was filmed the same day) would you agree that he's redirecting given that he says he is. Sure, they are at a slower tempo, he's travelling further back and forth across the hill and the speed is likely more controlled.



Now look at the OP vid and the turns on the steeper terrain when he's skiing away from the tower. Are they different or the same? (Just the upper few turns.)

I disagree he says that he is redirecting. Shaping, like steering can mean many things to many people and we could launch in detailed technical discussions about how steering angle is created with extension not pivoting etc - But simply, these are his words (from the cc):
- push against your skis
- be careful to not just push the tails out
- with this action you can influence the direction of the ski
- the edge angle will increase and the skis will run along their edge.

This is the advice you give someone when you want them to bend the ski, not pivot or redirect.

Fact: you can't redirect and get deflection at the same time. You need ski-snow interaction to get deflection, and no ski-snow interaction to redirect.

I'm not saying he's never redirecting or pivoting or that they don't work or have no applicability etc. They are all inputs, it's a matter of what outcome one's looking for.

 

[geepers]

I disagree he says that he is redirecting. Shaping, like steering can mean many things to many people and we could launch in detailed technical discussions about how steering angle is created with extension not pivoting etc - But simply, these are his words (from the cc):
- push against your skis
- be careful to not just push the tails out
- with this action you can influence the direction of the ski
- the edge angle will increase and the skis will run along their edge.

This is the advice you give someone when you want them to clean carve, not pivot or redirect.

Fact: you can't redirect and get deflection at the same time. You need ski-smow interaction to get deflection, and no ski,-snow interaction to redirect.

From his vid #21

It those little crescent things. When it's carving they generally draw parallel lines. In the turns what I see is a small but distinct redirect beginning as the skis head into the fall line and ending with the edge set towards the end of the turn. More noticeable on turns off his left foot than his right.

It's not traditional "rotary" as in driving the redirect through rotation of the femurs in the hip sockets.. Seems closer to Tom Gellie's description of frontside heavy to me - allowing the tails to displace more than the tips through for/aft rebalancing.

In his vid #41 in that turn back to the left on the steep - step through frame by frame. There's rotation of the ski in the air.

And go back to his vid #41. Look at turn towards skier's left after 2:25 frame by frame. There's a touch of redirection in the air in a couple of those turns.

Fact: you can't redirect and get deflection at the same time. You need ski-smow interaction to get deflection, and no ski,-snow interaction to redirect.

Wouldn't disagree with that however I'm going to go with Tom's discussion in this vid.



Russ Woods (the guy on the left) is doing a bigger redirect here than in Richie's turns but he sure deflects when the time comes. Orange and blue...not so much.

Hey, this is just the way I see it there days. These are typically the discussions where I get a chance to learn something so please chime back in if I'm missing something.

 

[razie]

I'm not to argue that this or that skier doesn't steer short turns or that Richie is or not doing or steering this or that? He may well be failing to not push his tails out and steer many short turns. Not in the original clip discussed, although some here even see big steering in transition, between those bananas. Heck - any person whose eyes are not painted on can connect the banana ends with straight lines, meaning zero redirection between the bananas, but heck, sanity is at a premium, sometimes. There's probably some a video for arguing that too

Tom's vid - you have a nice collection, you can certainly make me quit my day job, if I indulge you, by making me watch and discuss weeks or months of coverage, for every assertion I make that doesn't jive with what you hear this or that person said in a vid. Yes CSIA pivots his turns, pivots into an edge set - it's quite clear. Look how late he gets grip and most deflection comes way under the fall line, he's getting more deflection from grinding the ski across under the fall line - that's exactly the problem with pivoting and redirecting instead of going for a clean turn. You train that, you get just that outcome. You want a different outcome, you train something else. I see his skis no longer change direction when he's on the grip. That's a Z turn, no matter how smooth or C-like when playing at full speed, and no comparison to Berger's turns whatsoever, simply compare how quickly the puff of snow disappears in Berger's turns, he got all the deflection right in the fall line. Why? Because he engaged the ski earlier, above the fall line. Why? Because he wasn't pivoting it into the edge set. Different realm of performance, plain and simple - so if the ski changes direction slightly while both pressure and angles increase, does it bother me - nope, frontside heavy or otherwise - he doesn't *need* that to make those turns work. That turn analyzed analyzed is a pretty bad turn left and right skiers, from my point of view - and not to say that my shorts are better.

Point is when he's getting deflected, he no longer pivots the ski. The two are quite mutualy exclusive. The pivoting there is before the edge set.

Orange pants is much worse off, engagement wise, it's a long legs, edge angle and patience issue, left is more refined, but both have the same mechanics of the turn - the slow Mo makes it quite obvious - very different from Berger's turns or say typical Reilly, who are not pivoting.

I think it's a confusion between redirecting as in redirecting the skis off the clean line and redirecting the mass, i.e. deflection across the hill. They both seem used in the video analysis for the same turn - leading to your confusion.

Here is a riddle for you: a ski bends from slightly bent to 3m radius within less vertical than its own length, what shape will it leave in snow?

 

[jimtransition]

Seems like the video in the OP is basically high tempo railroad tracks, maybe a tiny bit of skidding or redirection at times but the tracks look very clean. Of course Richi does other movements in other turns.

I think the speedy shorts on flatter terrain are actually easier than a full short turn on a run where speed control is required.

 

[Sanity]

...only posting this here, because I was doing exactly just that in the orange pants run, first runs on a brand new Fischer WC SL thinking just "fast offset". The thing is mean, love it.



But doing that without any prior significant training in those precise movements? Not useful... not that any amount of said work guarantees any kind of good outcome (proof above, heh), but still, not useful.

The turns in the video above have very little steering, if any at all. I would probably say there is some in transition, but I couldn't prove it. These are different turns than what Berger is doing in his video. Notice the faster tempo, less deviation of the upper body left to right with Berger, less time in transition. In this case, it is a result of more steering in transition.

If your goal is the absence of steering with a clean carve, then the ski parameters dictate the turn shape, tempo... relationships of speed, edge angle, turning radius, are all locked in, so that the maximum tempo, minimum turning radius end up looking like the video above. With perfect edge to edge carving, shortening the radius and speeding up the tempo would require higher edge angles which we're not seeing with Berger.

 

[jimtransition]

The turns in the video above have very little steering, if any at all. I would probably say there is some in transition, but I couldn't prove it. These are different turns than what Berger is doing in his video. Notice the faster tempo, less deviation of the upper body left to right with Berger, less time in transition. In this case, it is a result of more steering in transition.

If your goal is the absence of steering with a clean carve, then the ski parameters dictate the turn shape, tempo... relationships of speed, edge angle, turning radius, are all locked in, so that the maximum tempo, minimum turning radius end up looking like the video above. With perfect edge to edge carving, shortening the radius and speeding up the tempo would require higher edge angles which we're not seeing with Berger.

Only way to solve this (other than calling Richi) is go try them, post your skidded ones, I will do some carved and we'll see which is closest.

 

[Sanity]

Only way to solve this (other than calling Richi) is go try them, post your skidded ones, I will do some carved and we'll see which is closest.

I posted my short turns already. My turns have more forward pressure, different posture, and less hip angulation, but otherwise are very similar. Let's see yours. (I have seen a number of your videos.) By the way, no one is talking about skidded turns. Steering during transition is not skidding. The ski is basically flat and also typically unweighted. Steering the ski at this time is hardly any different than running the ski straight, and will not look like skidding. Skidding is when the ski breaks out of the arc while up on edge, and as I stated before, that's not what's happening with Berger's turns.

At a given speed the ski won't carve until it reaches a certain edge angle. Go 40 mph, and tip the ski slightly and see what happens. You won't carve the expected radius of the ski, nowhere close. The ski has to be up on edge a good bit, before it can start carving cleanly unless you're in very good conditions going slowly. This is one reason steering in the beginning of the turn is often employed. Otherwise, the ski will smear/skid until you can create enough edge angle to carve. So, to carve cleanly at high speeds, the ski needs to run straight through transition without pressure until the skis have moved across the body enough to angulate enough to apply high edge angles. That type of turn with no smearing or steering is a very specific, easy to identify turn, with very little room for variation, because it's locked in to the parameters of the ski.

 

[James]

It's amazing that some will see the opposite in that skiing - it goes to show the understanding of what it takes to ski like that, even after all their instructional videos...

Seeing is believing.
That “opposite” is what he says himself. He’s pretty big on rotating the legs, and feet. Well, that’s what he says. Steering the feet.
But why take his word for it?

————————————
Tom: I have been playing with this idea that when you're steering with your leg, most people would just talk about steering from the upper leg. So that's the thigh, there is separation there at the hip joint, but there's also some steering which you can do with the foot and the lower leg from below the knee joint. And my feeling on it is you use more of the upper part of the leg at the beginning because it's more of an edging movement and you actually relax the lower leg to allow the foot to roll out and the skis around the edge. And then more from the fall line, as you start to want to build the pressure more and direct the ski back, you use not so much the upper leg, but more the foot and the lower leg to bring the skis back under you.
Richard: Yeah, I agree to this.

Tom: Do you teach in that way or how do you get this idea across to people you ski with?
Richard: Yeah, of course. I explain it because too often we explain and we show them that you have to move your knees. Left and Right. But you can't move your knee sideways. There is only one way to be able to move your knees. And to move them sideway, you need to rotate your thigh, your leg. That's the reason why your knees are inside.

Tom: Ok. Today I was trying to explain to my group on the glacier that they need to feel movement at the hip joint and the knee joint. To be aware of more than one area in their legs that rotation can occur. And then we played with being more active with one of these parts of the body at different parts of the turn.
Richard: It’s like on golf, on tennis. You start teaching them to move your arm in your shoulder. Then if you become better and better, you also open your wrist for acceleration. And that's the key you give the ball its speed.

Tom: Yeah. You get this whip effect.
Richard: Yeah. That's also the acceleration out of the turn.
————————-

Big Picture Skiing

bigpictureskiing.com

 

[Noodler]

Seeing is believing.
That “opposite” is what he says himself. He’s pretty big on rotating the legs, and feet. Well, that’s what he says. Steering the feet.
But why take his word for it?

————————————
Tom: I have been playing with this idea that when you're steering with your leg, most people would just talk about steering from the upper leg. So that's the thigh, there is separation there at the hip joint, but there's also some steering which you can do with the foot and the lower leg from below the knee joint. And my feeling on it is you use more of the upper part of the leg at the beginning because it's more of an edging movement and you actually relax the lower leg to allow the foot to roll out and the skis around the edge. And then more from the fall line, as you start to want to build the pressure more and direct the ski back, you use not so much the upper leg, but more the foot and the lower leg to bring the skis back under you.
Richard: Yeah, I agree to this.

Tom: Do you teach in that way or how do you get this idea across to people you ski with?
Richard: Yeah, of course. I explain it because too often we explain and we show them that you have to move your knees. Left and Right. But you can't move your knee sideways. There is only one way to be able to move your knees. And to move them sideway, you need to rotate your thigh, your leg. That's the reason why your knees are inside.

Tom: Ok. Today I was trying to explain to my group on the glacier that they need to feel movement at the hip joint and the knee joint. To be aware of more than one area in their legs that rotation can occur. And then we played with being more active with one of these parts of the body at different parts of the turn.
Richard: It’s like on golf, on tennis. You start teaching them to move your arm in your shoulder. Then if you become better and better, you also open your wrist for acceleration. And that's the key you give the ball its speed.

Tom: Yeah. You get this whip effect.
Richard: Yeah. That's also the acceleration out of the turn.
————————-

Big Picture Skiing

bigpictureskiing.com

We've had this discussion so many times over the years. Let's not confuse passive femur rotation with actively trying to twist/rotate the skis (in one plane). The rotary he's talking about is not the type that pivots the skis. There is no "flat" pivot happening. This is why many of us simply hate the use of the term "rotary" because there is no simple agreed upon definition for it when it comes to skiing movements.

 

[Sanity]

We've had this discussion so many times over the years. Let's not confuse passive femur rotation with actively trying to twist/rotate the skis (in one plane). The rotary he's talking about is not the type that pivots the skis. There is no "flat" pivot happening. This is why many of us simply hate the use of the term "rotary" because there is no simple agreed upon definition for it when it comes to skiing movements.

Is this active or passive rotary below starting at 33S? I'll give you a hint. It must be active, because there are no shaped skis. What's the difference compared to skis? Through transitions there's hardly any difference at all, because it has to be active during transition. Until the ski is up on edge with a healthy angle for fast speeds, it won't turn on it's own quickly enough.

 

[James]

We've had this discussion so many times over the years. Let's not confuse passive femur rotation with actively trying to twist/rotate the skis (in one plane). The rotary he's talking about is not the type that pivots the skis. There is no "flat" pivot happening. This is why many of us simply hate the use of the term "rotary" because there is no simple agreed upon definition for it when it comes to skiing movements.

Now you’re George Orwell with words.
Of course there’s no flat pivot happening. It’s not a “skidded” either. Those are just straw men. I also don’t get how someone else’s skiing has to do with Richie Berger’s. There’s no need for demos from anyone.

We get it. It’s active rotary. Not passive. No other way to say it. They think about turning their legs. And feet! They’re not waiting for the weathervane effect to turn them.
I mean the guy makes the same shape turns with ski boots in snow. (Posted above) Can’t get much more active rotary than that. If he waited for the snow to turn his boots the turns would be very different.

 

[jimtransition]

I posted my short turns already. My turns have more forward pressure, different posture, and less hip angulation, but otherwise are very similar. Let's see yours. (I have seen a number of your videos.) By the way, no one is talking about skidded turns. Steering during transition is not skidding. The ski is basically flat and also typically unweighted. Steering the ski at this time is hardly any different than running the ski straight, and will not look like skidding. Skidding is when the ski breaks out of the arc while up on edge, and as I stated before, that's not what's happening with Berger's turns.

At a given speed the ski won't carve until it reaches a certain edge angle. Go 40 mph, and tip the ski slightly and see what happens. You won't carve the expected radius of the ski, nowhere close. The ski has to be up on edge a good bit, before it can start carving cleanly unless you're in very good conditions going slowly. This is one reason steering in the beginning of the turn is often employed. Otherwise, the ski will smear/skid until you can create enough edge angle to carve. So, to carve cleanly at high speeds, the ski needs to run straight through transition without pressure until the skis have moved across the body enough to angulate enough to apply high edge angles. That type of turn with no smearing or steering is a very specific, easy to identify turn, with very little room for variation, because it's locked in to the parameters of the ski.

Here's some relatively high tempo shorts from few years ago, but I haven't ever tried to do the super speedy ones before today. I felt like on a medium pitch with grippy snow is the best, steeper and I needed to slow down, which messes with the tempo (and yep pivoted entry for sure) too flat and the rebound isn't there. I think for the super speedy it is a different, carvier technique to a full short, but if someone who can do them well feels otherwise I am open to trying it.

 

[jimtransition]

Now you’re George Orwell with words.
Of course there’s no flat pivot happening. It’s not a “skidded” either. Those are just straw men. I also don’t get how someone else’s skiing has to do with Richie Berger’s. There’s no need for demos from anyone.

We get it. It’s active rotary. Not passive. No other way to say it. They think about turning their legs. And feet! They’re not waiting for the weathervane effect to turn them.
I mean the guy makes the same shape turns with ski boots in snow. (Posted above) Can’t get much more active rotary than that. If he waited for the snow to turn his boots the turns would be very different.

As always it's ended up in semantics, if you see turning the femurs to edge the ski as rotary, what do you define as edging?

 

[James]

As always it's ended up in semantics, if you see turning the femurs to edge the ski as rotary, what do you define as edging?

Edging isn’t defined by anything other than the ski and the surface.
How is he directing the boots in turns with no skis on? (Edging- none since there’s no edges By definition.)
He’s not doing that demo for entertainment.

 

[jimtransition]

Edging isn’t defined by anything other than the ski and the surface.
How is he directing the boots in turns with no skis on? (Edging- none since there’s no edges By definition.)
He’s not doing that demo for entertainment.

I feel like you think I am saying Richi never turns his legs, I am just saying I think in these specific very fast short turns, it's mainly what most instructors would describe as edging. I also said I could be wrong, but given that all Richi told us in the video is to not think, we haven't got too much to go on

 

[razie]

Seems like the video in the OP is basically high tempo railroad tracks, maybe a tiny bit of skidding or redirection at times but the tracks look very clean. Of course Richi does other movements in other turns.

I think the speedy shorts on flatter terrain are actually easier than a full short turn on a run where speed control is required.

I really need to learn to use less words. A lot less words.

This will pobably not be "it". I've discussed passive/active rotation with a lot of skiers and teachers of all persuasions. TomG's comment on my femur rotation analysis, for instance, was I believe "bang on,".

Femur rotation

About "other movements" - in my view of the world, a clean turn does not mean rail road tracks necessarily, but lacking a twisting of the feet or pushing the heels out or any of these extreme survival movements. Basically the same mechanics as good rail road tracks, but allowing for some redirection via timing or less angles etc - maybe closer to that @geepers refered to as front side heavy, that would be ok, I guess, if I understand that right. The critical bits are: Same mechanics as clean carve and same timing along the line. Why - because small adjustments when "pushing it" in high performance skiing are normal and if the outcome is less edge locked carving than it could have been, it is still the same turn for me. Speed and snow quality etc all those conspire for there being less edge lock for the same turn - it would still be a clean turn.

Stivoting or pushing the heels out of the line, hopping from apex to apex or steering actively to redirect skis or pivoting - that is different turn mechanics. But what some people do - some to sell ski instruction to unsuspecting citizens, some because those grapes are really sour, they (purposefully?) confuse the two, rip apart the "rotation" out of great skiing, apply it to shtup** skiing and sell it as a thing in itself, then analyze the heck out of it, put it on a pedestal, sing it praises, write manuals centered around it and declare anything else as impossible or "why would you?". Then declare those of us that focus on real performance and avoid the darned thing: a personna non grata...

For me, that's like killing an elephant to sell it's tusks!! The difference is that 99% wouldn't understand the difference, so they get away with you know, killing the elephants...

The issue only shows up when someone wants real performance but can never attain it, like the dudes in geeper's video. Even though their manuals mentioned it, they were never really shown that the tusks are but a small part of the elephant and wasted a ton of their life in pursuit of the wrong thing. Was it's all for nothing? Nah, they got decent and each, probably among the best skier at their hill... But most will have to relearn skiing from scratch, to avoid being just tusks and become the beast that, in their mind, they think they are.

Since we have many countries and many persuasions here, put up an organic example from your organization, that you would like to ski like and let's compare that skiing, to Richi or Reilly etc. I will donate my time and do that detailed analysis here. @Sanity we can start with you, but if you save me the trouble and put the link here...

@James I agree with the first point there too, shocker! But that's a small part of it... I kinda skipped the rest for now...


D



@James : edging isn’t defined by anything other than the ski and the surface.

Nope! Not by far! All due respect, but this is exactly the problem with looking only at the outcome: Edging is totally defined by how you got there!!! If I simply put my butt on the snow, is that edging? From your point if view: yes, the outcome is present! From my point of view, I would require a psychiatrist...

 

[dj61]

Here's some relatively high tempo shorts from few years ago, but I haven't ever tried to do the super speedy ones before today. I felt like on a medium pitch with grippy snow is the best, steeper and I needed to slow down, which messes with the tempo (and yep pivoted entry for sure) too flat and the rebound isn't there. I think for the super speedy it is a different, carvier technique to a full short, but if someone who can do them well feels otherwise I am open to trying it.

To me the main difference is in the upper body. You are actively counteracting, Richie is not. Therefore there is a bit more flow in his skiing.

 

[razie]

To me the main difference is in the upper body. You are actively counteracting, Richie is not. Therefore there is a bit more flow in his skiing.

Nope! Good eye though! Upper body and CA are different! Richi is just way faster and more extreme with CA - here's where to look (~ish, the video player I have requires me to put the beer down to get it to stop in the right place):

All North American official organizations will tell you you don't want to do this - which is why they can't teach this skiing...

C'mon... anyone?

 

[geepers]

I'm not to argue that this or that skier doesn't steer short turns or that Richie is or not doing or steering this or that? He may well be failing to not push his tails out and steer many short turns. Not in the original clip discussed, although some here even see big steering in transition, between those bananas. Heck - any person whose eyes are not painted on can connect the banana ends with straight lines, meaning zero redirection between the bananas, but heck, sanity is at a premium, sometimes. There's probably some a video for arguing that too

Tom's vid - you have a nice collection, you can certainly make me quit my day job, if I indulge you, by making me watch and discuss weeks or months of coverage, for every assertion I make that doesn't jive with what you hear this or that person said in a vid. Yes CSIA pivots his turns, pivots into an edge set - it's quite clear. Look how late he gets grip and most deflection comes way under the fall line, he's getting more deflection from grinding the ski across under the fall line - that's exactly the problem with pivoting and redirecting instead of going for a clean turn. You train that, you get just that outcome. You want a different outcome, you train something else. I see his skis no longer change direction when he's on the grip. That's a Z turn, no matter how smooth or C-like when playing at full speed, and no comparison to Berger's turns whatsoever, simply compare how quickly the puff of snow disappears in Berger's turns, he got all the deflection right in the fall line. Why? Because he engaged the ski earlier, above the fall line. Why? Because he wasn't pivoting it into the edge set. Different realm of performance, plain and simple - so if the ski changes direction slightly while both pressure and angles increase, does it bother me - nope, frontside heavy or otherwise - he doesn't *need* that to make those turns work. That turn analyzed analyzed is a pretty bad turn left and right skiers, from my point of view - and not to say that my shorts are better.

Point is when he's getting deflected, he no longer pivots the ski. The two are quite mutualy exclusive. The pivoting there is before the edge set.

Orange pants is much worse off, engagement wise, it's a long legs, edge angle and patience issue, left is more refined, but both have the same mechanics of the turn - the slow Mo makes it quite obvious - very different from Berger's turns or say typical Reilly, who are not pivoting.

I think it's a confusion between redirecting as in redirecting the skis off the clean line and redirecting the mass, i.e. deflection across the hill. They both seem used in the video analysis for the same turn - leading to your confusion.

Here is a riddle for you: a ski bends from slightly bent to 3m radius within less vertical than its own length, what shape will it leave in snow?

No, not confused on the difference between redirect the ski - i.e. change the direction the ski is going - and redirect the momentum, the body - i.e. deflect the skier across the pitch. For the former I've read this. Especially this bit:

Managing the pressure fore/aft works by drifting a part of the ski (the tails). So, being very far forward on the skis will unweight the tails and not allow them to engage, therefore cause them to step out and skid out.

Would say that as the snow gets more honest it's not a case of "very far forward" - just a little forward will do. And when well managed and controlled wouldn't describe it "step out and skid out". Although that's what happens when it is not well done.

Tom Gellie has a number of long, detailed vids on this technique - a couple of video-ed lessons and a webinar or two.



Seems that you think for those high speed shorts on the less steep in the OP vid that Richie uses an entirely different technique that he has not revealed to us in the Projected Productions Legacy (short turns) vid, nor in his youtube vids #20 -> #25 and various other vids. Whereas I think it's the same basic technique and he just applies different DIRT to the shaping and edging phases to get the desired tempo, deflection and speed.

Here's a couple of interesting Richie drills. What do they tell you?

The sit down is deliberate - something to do with student confidence. Although sitting down like that on the pitches where the CSIA normally take us for short turns wouldn't fill me me with any confidence.

Z turns? Hmmm... yeah, that's kind of extreme. The Paula vid a few weeks back - that was classic Z turns. CSIA guy is redirecting the skis into a sudden increase in pressure. Where lots of interesting things can happen. Here's the longer clip.


Here's Richie puffing snow.

Another guy puffing snow.

And a CSIA guy - good tempo. Still a bit slower than RB but pretty good.

 

[razie]

@geepers like I said - nice video collection. You're bringing other videos in answer to comments on other videos. It seems you're trying to say that different skiers in different videos do sometimes different things. The answer is "duh".