Richi Berger. Just good skiing.

[geepers]

@geepers like I said - nice video collection. You're bringing other videos in answer to comments on other videos. It seems you're trying to say that different skiers in different videos do sometimes different things. The answer is "duh".

Well, I got weary of posting snippets of Richie redirecting into an edge set.

And then you posted a vid of another skier so thought it was allowed.

The vids of other skiers is related to the Z turn label - felt that was uncharitable.

 

[Sanity]

@Sanity we can start with you, but if you save me the trouble and put the link here...

Here you go.

 

[tromano]

His style is mesmerising and visually interesting. His timing and rhythm are remarkable. I think his approach expresses an intent to make as many turns as possible. I agree with @Philpug that his moguls skiing looks better as it more aligned with how I would approach that terrain than how he skis on the groomed runs.

 

[razie]

In this case, it is a result of more steering in transition.

If your goal is the absence of steering with a clean carve, then the ski parameters dictate the turn shape, tempo... relationships of speed, edge angle, turning radius, are all locked in, so that the maximum tempo, minimum turning radius end up looking like the video above. With perfect edge to edge carving, shortening the radius and speeding up the tempo would require higher edge angles which we're not seeing with Berger.

The ski parameters - true, not just that, snow hold etc too - but that would be a static physics analysis. There are other dynamic factors at play, for instance, the duration of the impulse, the direction of the speed, use of body segments at the right time, so timing and quality of engagement (when can you pressure) etc which factor into the result, above the static universal factors like ski shape and flex, edge angle etc.

Lack of steering in transition takes a lot of practice but is extremely important for early engagement. This is critical for deflection and speed control options: the later the ski engages, the fewer options you have, until the extreme which is way under the fall line. Holding the counter in transition takes significant foot action, but it is the exact opposite of steering and Berger does an excellent job at that - I don't see any steering during the actual transition there - the ski glides across without a direction change, even as it changes edges - that's as clean as it gets.

Everything starts to happen in the top of the turn or "shaping" phase, as his counter starts to unwind and extends the leg. That's a story for after I go make some turns - I said carved, I never said those turns are railed/edge locked - although that transition is as clean as it gets...

Just a teaser: the actual radius of a SL ski is around 3-4m. RLM did the calculations, sure enough at bigger edge angles, while his look smaller. But, that's just a "static" analysis.

 

[James]

@James : edging isn’t defined by anything other than the ski and the surface.

Nope! Not by far! All due respect, but this is exactly the problem with looking only at the outcome: Edging is totally defined by how you got there!!! If I simply put my butt on the snow, is that edging? From your point if view: yes, the outcome is present! From my point of view, I would require a psychiatrist

What’s the ski doing while your butt is on the ground?
I never said how you edge doesn’t matter. He asked about the definition of edging, not the action of edging.

I agree with you about the clean part, doesn’t have to be rr tracks.

Stivoting or pushing the heels out of the line, hopping from apex to apex or steering actively to redirect skis or pivoting - that is different turn mechanics.
But what some people do - some to sell ski instruction to unsuspecting citizens, some because those grapes are really sour, they (purposefully?) confuse the two, rip apart the "rotation" out of great skiing, apply it to shtup** skiing and sell it as a thing in itself, then analyze the heck out of it, put it on a pedestal, sing it praises, write manuals centered around it and declare anything else as impossible or "why would you?". Then declare those of us that focus on real performance and avoid the darned thing: a personna non grata...

Wtf are you talking about?

—————————-
The way the femurs rotate is the difference between pivoting and carving: do we turn the femurs with an active effort of the respective big and imprecise muscles or do we allow the femurs to rotate, as a result of the lower feet tipping the ski on edge (with the small, precise muscles) and the ski interaction with the snow (sidecut)? Do we activelyturn the feet and steer the skis around the turn or do we turn the upper body the other way instead (via counteracting)?
——————
-Razie

Sorry, but it’s [Berger] active rotary. So by your definition, which I don’t agree with, he’s a pivoter. [ Ridiculous, because he’s not.]

Yes, big muscles. And feet! Using the small muscles. Omg, the horror. You don’t even pay attention to what the man says about his own skiing. Nor what he does in the boot skiing. That’s passive? He’s turning the feet there by counter rotation?

 

[razie]

Sorry, but it’s active rotary. So by your definition, which I don’t agree with, he’s a pivoter.
Yes, big muscles. And feet! Using the small muscles. Omg, the horror. You don’t even pay attention to what the man says about his own skiing. Nor what he does in the boot skiing. That’s passive? He’s turning the feet there by counter rotation?

Hey - I did not define rotary as being everything, others did - but it means everything to do with rotation of everything, so it can't be used to describe anything specific. I am specific about what muscles do what and when and then you tell me "oh, that is counter so is active rotary, thus it is pivoting". That's a logic fail: a red jacket is a jacket thus it is a blue jacket?? This is what using this term gets us into - it's worse than steering, which itself is super fuzzy. How can anyone hope to create precise skiing with such imprecise models?

The only use I could find for it is as maybe a category, to categorize movements and drills etc (as in everything that happens in the "rotational" plane, that's how it was introduced as I understand it) - but then if you look at the current language, the movements have dissapeared from discourse, and it's all just "jacket", err "rotary". Turning is "rotary" by definition ... so all skiing is a "blue jacket"? This reminds of beind told "I pivot well from the middle of the ski" during a edge-locked carving demo.

 

[James]

Hey - I did not define rotary as being everything, others did - thus it means either everything to do with rotation, so it can't be used to describe anything specific. I am specific about what muscles do what and when and then you tell me "oh, that is counter so is active rotary, thus it is pivoting". That's a logic fail: a red jacket is a jacket thus it is a blue jacket?? This is what using this term gets us into - it's worse than steering, which itself is super fuzzy. How can anyone hope to create precise skiing with such imprecise models?

Now you’ve just lost it. I didn’t say any of that. Maybe listen to what Richie had to say about his own skiing.
He’s turning his freakin’ legs. What’s hard to understand about that? Sit with your butt on a counter, point them left and right. Not complicated.

 

[razie]

Now you’ve just lost it. I didn’t say any of that.

Or were you referring back to Berger or to my definition as being "all active rotary" anyways?

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant.

You equate the boot drill with the skiing? I see it only as skill development. A good drill. And his skiing is different in different videos, depending on what he wants to do...

 

[James]

View attachment 152477

Or were you referring back to Berger or to my definition as being "all active rotary" anyways?

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant.

You equate the boot drill with the skiing? I see it only as skill development. A good drill. And his skiing is different in different videos, depending on what he wants to do...

Listen to what he says. I posted it.
You really think he does ski boot drills divorced from his skiing technique?

 

[Sanity]

The ski parameters - true, not just that, snow hold etc too - but that would be a static physics analysis. There are other dynamic factors at play, for instance, the duration of the impulse, the direction of the speed, use of body segments at the right time, so timing and quality of engagement (when can you pressure) etc which factor into the result, above the static universal factors like ski shape and flex, edge angle etc.

Lack of steering in transition takes a lot of practice but is extremely important for early engagement. This is critical for deflection and speed control options: the later the ski engages, the fewer options you have, until the extreme which is way under the fall line. Holding the counter in transition takes significant foot action, but it is the exact opposite of steering and Berger does an excellent job at that - I don't see any steering during the actual transition there - the ski glides across without a direction change, even as it changes edges - that's as clean as it gets.

View attachment 152476
Everything starts to happen in the top of the turn or "shaping" phase, as his counter starts to unwind and extends the leg. That's a story for after I go make some turns - I said carved, I never said those turns are railed/edge locked - although that transition is as clean as it gets...

Just a teaser: the actual radius of a SL ski is around 3-4m. RLM did the calculations, sure enough at bigger edge angles, while his look smaller. But, that's just a "static" analysis.

Those picutres show steering. You think the ski will turn itself with that slight edge angle that sharply at that speed from frame 4 to 5? No way! And with no snow spray, joke. That's what the boot drill shows. Hopefully you understand that a boot can't carve, so it must be steering. Same here. A ski can't carve sharp turns, at a slight edge angle, at fast speeds, with no spray. He's probably going 25 mph. Go out on the slope, get up to 25mph, and tip your ski to that angle and measure your turning radius. You believe the ski can turn like that. It can't.

 

[James]

Or were you referring back to Berger

Referring to what Berger said. It’s very active steering of the legs. It’s amazing to me that you pretend to not know what that means or how to do it.

So, you do drills that have nothing to do with what you want in skiing? Like apparently Berger dies with his boot skiing. He’s goofing off in his instructional video?

I’m curious as to how you view the Japanese tech style of Berger, McGlashan and Reilly relates to racing.

 

[jimtransition]

Those picutres show steering. You think the ski will turn itself with that slight edge angle that sharply at that speed from frame 4 to 5? No way! And with no snow spray, joke. That's what the boot drill shows. Hopefully you understand that a boot can't carve, so it must be steering. Same here. A ski can't carve sharp turns, at a slight edge angle, at fast speeds, with no spray. He's probably going 25 mph. Go out on the slope, get up to 25mph, and tip your ski to that angle and measure your turning radius. You believe the ski can turn like that. It can't.

The absence of spray is what shows the ski is carving (that and the two clean lines left in the snow).

 

[Sanity]

The absence of spray is what shows the ski is carving (that and the two clean lines left in the snow).

Speed + turning radius -> Centrifugal force -> COM lean -> exceeding the critical platform angle. It is physically impossible for the ski to carve the ski's turning radius at low edge angles at fast speeds. It doesn't matter how much skill. It's beyond the capabilities of the ski. In practical application, when the ski bites and turns there is snow spray at those speeds. There is no snow spray when the skier is weightless and steering the ski. Look how much snow spray there is in your video when you are carving. There is no spray when you are redirecting, but there is big spray when you are carving. Yes, you are carving even though you have tons of spray. Don't be down on yourself. Look how much spray is in the op video. It's only when he's carving which is when he's well up on edge. If spray means he's not carving then you just proved my point that he's not edge to edge carving, but that's not true. His spray is only coming during the times when he has sufficient edge angle to carve.

Here's some relatively high tempo shorts from few years ago, but I haven't ever tried to do the super speedy ones before today. I felt like on a medium pitch with grippy snow is the best, steeper and I needed to slow down, which messes with the tempo (and yep pivoted entry for sure) too flat and the rebound isn't there. I think for the super speedy it is a different, carvier technique to a full short, but if someone who can do them well feels otherwise I am open to trying it.

 

[jimtransition]

I would say that vid shows a relatively low amount of spray (apart from one turn where I almost lose control), look at the post geepers made a way back for the amount of snow a regular short turn moves.

Anyway, this convo has gone far enough for me, merry christmas all, may all your short turns be speedy

 

[Sanity]

I would say that vid shows a relatively low amount of spray (apart from one turn where I almost lose control), look at the post geepers made a way back for the amount of snow a regular short turn moves.

Anyway, this convo has gone far enough for me, merry christmas all, may all your short turns be speedy

If the ski is up on edge and skidding there will be more spray.

 

[D. Trenker]

 

[Roundturns]

Not only is Richie a great skier, he sure seems to be a great person as well.

 

[dj61]

If we want to know what Richie is actually doing, look at his videos. He explains everything in detail.

 

[razie]

Those picutres show steering. You think the ski will turn itself with that slight edge angle that sharply at that speed from frame 4 to 5? No way! And with no snow spray, joke. That's what the boot drill shows. Hopefully you understand that a boot can't carve, so it must be steering. Same here. A ski can't carve sharp turns, at a slight edge angle, at fast speeds, with no spray. He's probably going 25 mph. Go out on the slope, get up to 25mph, and tip your ski to that angle and measure your turning radius. You believe the ski can turn like that. It can't.

No, it can't. This is biomechanics, but this is going in circles now. I would suggest gathering more info, if all you see in that transition from left to right as steering. Or were you picking on the last 5 degree redirection as defining that entire transition, nay, that entire skiing? Wow...

 

[razie]

Referring to what Berger said. It’s very active steering of the legs. It’s amazing to me that you pretend to not know what that means or how to do it.

I’m curious as to how you view the Japanese tech style of Berger, McGlashan and Reilly relates to racing.

Nah. It is interesting how our personal biases show and what confirmation biases lead to. We look at the same skiing and see completely different things - some see 100% active foot twisting and define that skiing as "just pivoting" while some see 0% active foot twisting or close to I mean 90/10 is same thing, biomechanics be damned. And define that skiing as "clean" (i.e. of pivoting).

Which to train to get that output - that's the more interesting part, I mean that's why we analyze it, right? I think the skiers trained in a certain way will get as far as the tech trained allows. Simple example: you'd train shorts only based on active foot twisting while I would train them avoiding active foot twisting. As I'm sure you know - there are four times more biomechanical mechanisms to achieve the redirection necessary without active foot twisting.

And yes, looking at the first runs in the OP video, I still see clean turns, with minimal to no foot twisting, i.e. no active rotary - if that's what it means.

To discuss whether some foot action is needed, we would have to make sure all involved understand how maintaining counter in transition works and other elements, which is not the case.

---

When you say Reilly's Japanese style, I see is no such thing - that's how some are trying to paint them as "different" if anything. Sure, they specifically train for the Japanese competitions and try to ski the same sometimes, but that's not their default.

This is Reilly's default - everything else is more detuned, more shmearing, more extension, more radius, more rotation, more inclination, more imitating something else etc:


So - relation to WC skiing? They are one of the very few out there that ski the exact same as the default of WC skiers, i.e. some of the most effective technique... here's a 1:1 comparison. Many look at WC racing and think that's how to ski all the time, not understanding that's meant to be an athletic competition, not a pure technical competition, misunderstanding the athleticism required to be fast on complex courses, for technique. The actual technique will generally show in technical training courses.


The difference with Blue Jacket, which we trained? He's on 18m skis, the others are on 12-13m skis... I know that many here will see the little timing and line adjustments at the top of some WC turns and see it all pivoting... and the implication being that somehow they were trained with mostly pivoting. In my view, all skiers in that video ski the exact same way, using the exact same "clean carving" technique, far removed from the "average", with no pivoting, no foot twisting, but the exact opposite. Some better, some less, some faster, some slower, but the same technique.

So... like Phil said, "ski and let ski". See what you will and train the way you choose. Comparing the results will be interesting...

To create this skiing or ski like this, I think one needs to be free of all dogma, step outside of any artificial limitations, decompose the skiing back into components, create very detailed models and follow the science wherever it takes you, chasing perfection. It's not easy. But the results are readily quantifiable and recognizable...

Cheers and Happy Holidays!