Tipping the foot inside the boot first - why?

[James]

Kind of puzzling what folk who get their hip on the snow, with huge shortening of the inside leg, are supposed to do other than (at some point before transition) extend that leg.

They just keep getting shorter, and disappear into the snow!

Some good shots in here, esp slo mo at 1:40.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....
1. When/where in the turn do folk tip their respective feet?
2. How fast/hard/far do they tip?
3. How long do they continue tipping (or hold it at some set level)?

Question 3 (duration of foot tipping): After passing the fall line I keep the inside foot/ski tipped and adjust the leg length as needed to bring that ski back up under me. So the inside leg stays short or shortens, depending. I also shorten the outside leg to bring the outside foot back up under me too.
As this is going on the edge angle is flattening. I am continuously thinking about foot location (not ski location) relative to CoM. I also do whatever balancing stuff that's needed to keep both ski tips and tails gripping as they follow the "infinity move" pathway, coming back up under the CoM on their sideways figure eight path. Once they get far enough back up under the CoM, the grip is released by default, the CoM continues moving and goes over the skis, the skier gets "upside down" to some degree, and the skis flip onto new edges as that happens. Skis will have been heading across the hill as all this is going on.

Question 2: (speed of outside ski tipping) Last season I started playing with different intensities of new outside leg extension right as the CoM is released. This leg extension hastens the cross-over and gets me "upside down" earlier. Both skis get onto new edges faster than if I only rely on bringing both feet back up under me. That speedy crossover is very very good. I'm talking about short to medium radius turns, focusing only on what happens above the fall line. I got surprisingly good results on icy NE black groomers with this subtle outside leg extension. I have no idea how close to the snow surface my hip was, but tips and tails gripped throughout these turns, no slippage, and the Gs were more than I usually deal with.

This season I will be continuing to explore this combination of inside foot tipping and continued flexing of the inside leg after the fall line, accompanied by subtle extension of the outside leg.

So for me, my releases, for those turns, on hard snow NE groomers, are primarily triggered by these things: bringing both feet back up under the body immediately after the fall line; doing this by using the continued edging of the inside ski, and shortening the old outside/new inside leg. Both skis stay edged until the release, at which point they immediately flip onto new edges all on their own as the body moves downhill over the skis.

Question 1 (foot tipping): I focus on tipping the inside foot inside its boot throughout the turn, holding onto and increasing its edge angle until the CoM is released and that flip happens. I may be missing something because I don't focus on tipping the outside foot as so many people promote. It tips by default due to the inside foot and leg's action.

I can't talk about how this works with students because I haven't had the opportunity to teach people skiing at this level.

Looking forward to reading what others say in response to these questions.

 

[geepers]

@LiquidFeet - thanks for the response. Interested to find out what others do.

On #2 you mention that it's for short to medium turns. Is that the case for #1 and #3? Anything different for long turns?

 

[LiquidFeet]

@LiquidFeet - thanks for the response. Interested to find out what others do.

On #2 you mention that it's for short to medium turns. Is that the case for #1 and #3? Anything different for long turns?

I don't have the terrain to make genuine long radius turns here in the crowded east. Our wide slopes tend to be crowded. I dare not try to make Paul Lorenz type turns in a crowd. Wish I could, safely. So all my answers are for medium/short.
Answers not necessarily applicable to super short bump turns.

 

[mister moose]

Like LF I'm still learning, experimenting. But I do have different focus at times.

In the real world I can't go for constant radius maximum performance turns. I might get a few, but many are adjusted for terrain or traffic. Mid turn there is a change in steering to shorten or lengthen the radius. Or start the next turn way sooner and transition rapidly. 8 am is a great time to have the trail to yourself.

So at my still evolving level of the game:
1. When/where in the turn do folk tip their respective feet?
All the time, almost always a constant change, it's an increase then a decrease. There might be a pause/change for steering, change the imminent track. When you look at your tracks, there should be less than a ski length where the ski was flat. You move from left edges to right edges in a constant rate of change, there is no pause to 'end' one turn and to 'begin' the next. So turn your thinking around. There is never a point where you begin tipping in transition. You continue the flattening skis from the old turn with the same rate of edge change continuing into the new edges and the new turn. When viewed from a rate of edge change you should be near maximum rate of change, not minimum, and not at rest, ie zero rate of edge change at the beginning of the new turn. The rate of edge change is at a minimum at the apex of the turn, not the beginning or end. In linked turns. Put another way: When the rate of turn is near its lowest, the rate of edge change is near its highest.
2. How fast/hard/far do they tip?
Shorter turns = more rapid tipping, a more rapid rate of change of edge angle. How far - how strong are you? 2 Gs is a lot to press against. Edge angle isn't some arbitrary choice, like I think I'll have beef today. Edge angle as it increases is a lot about strength, maximizing the straightness of your outer leg to maximize skeletal support, and the ability to balance and steer while under increased load. The other half is balance. You are always moving your body to balance the forces you are generating. This takes a lot of days on snow to marry those two seamlessly.
3. How long do they continue tipping (or hold it at some set level)?
They continue to tip until the point of maximum pressure in the turn, then the angle begins decreasing. I've been coached to always be changing, never be static. But sometimes I hold a constant edge angle for oh a half to 3/4 second. I then have little voices going off in my head about how I should feel bad or not. Carve guilt. It's a thing.

In one of the videos I watched recently, they talked about going a little airborne at transition. This can happen if you release the pressure rapidly, your body rapidly rises from grazing the snow to nearly full height, and you keep going up. It's fun, and since I'm not racing I don't care about the next turn entry.

 

[Tony S]

In one of the videos I watched recently, they talked about going a little airborne at transition. This can happen if you release the pressure rapidly, your body rapidly rises from grazing the snow to nearly full height, and you keep going up. It's fun, and since I'm not racing I don't care about the next turn entry.

My two cents: Having a little air under your skis at transition is just another point on the continuum of lightness. It doesn't have to be the result of excessive extension, which your post seems to imply. (For example, maybe your retraction move after a little heel pressure at the end of the turn was extra vigorous.) Nor does it always signal some kind of compromise of the next turn.

In short, enjoy your fun!

Edit: cantunamunch resurrected this pic from a couple years ago in another thread. I like the way it shows the discontinuous track and what looks to me - while admitting the strong possibility that vanity has entered the room - like staying centered over the skis despite the jetting immediately prior.

 

[James]

^ Obviously the helmet pulls you off the snow.

 

[Tony S]

^ Obviously the helmet pulls you off the snow.

Yes!

 

[geepers]

Like LF I'm still learning, experimenting. But I do have different focus at times.

In the real world I can't go for constant radius maximum performance turns. I might get a few, but many are adjusted for terrain or traffic. Mid turn there is a change in steering to shorten or lengthen the radius. Or start the next turn way sooner and transition rapidly. 8 am is a great time to have the trail to yourself.

So at my still evolving level of the game:
1. When/where in the turn do folk tip their respective feet?
All the time, almost always a constant change, it's an increase then a decrease. There might be a pause/change for steering, change the imminent track. When you look at your tracks, there should be less than a ski length where the ski was flat. You move from left edges to right edges in a constant rate of change, there is no pause to 'end' one turn and to 'begin' the next. So turn your thinking around. There is never a point where you begin tipping in transition. You continue the flattening skis from the old turn with the same rate of edge change continuing into the new edges and the new turn. When viewed from a rate of edge change you should be near maximum rate of change, not minimum, and not at rest, ie zero rate of edge change at the beginning of the new turn. The rate of edge change is at a minimum at the apex of the turn, not the beginning or end. In linked turns. Put another way: When the rate of turn is near its lowest, the rate of edge change is near its highest.
2. How fast/hard/far do they tip?
Shorter turns = more rapid tipping, a more rapid rate of change of edge angle. How far - how strong are you? 2 Gs is a lot to press against. Edge angle isn't some arbitrary choice, like I think I'll have beef today. Edge angle as it increases is a lot about strength, maximizing the straightness of your outer leg to maximize skeletal support, and the ability to balance and steer while under increased load. The other half is balance. You are always moving your body to balance the forces you are generating. This takes a lot of days on snow to marry those two seamlessly.
3. How long do they continue tipping (or hold it at some set level)?
They continue to tip until the point of maximum pressure in the turn, then the angle begins decreasing. I've been coached to always be changing, never be static. But sometimes I hold a constant edge angle for oh a half to 3/4 second. I then have little voices going off in my head about how I should feel bad or not. Carve guilt. It's a thing.

In one of the videos I watched recently, they talked about going a little airborne at transition. This can happen if you release the pressure rapidly, your body rapidly rises from grazing the snow to nearly full height, and you keep going up. It's fun, and since I'm not racing I don't care about the next turn entry.

Question: are you referring to tipping the skis or tipping the feet?

 

[geepers]

It doesn't have to be the result of excessive extension

 

[mister moose]

Question: are you referring to tipping the skis or tipping the feet?

Oh boy. Let's say I'm referring to tipping the skis. When the OP talks about How long do they continue tipping it implies (to me at least) we're talking about edge angle, ie tipping the skis.

 

[geepers]

Oh boy. Let's say I'm referring to tipping the skis. When the OP talks about How long do they continue tipping it implies (to me at least) we're talking about edge angle, ie tipping the skis.

Ah, the potential for miscomms....

Original questions were about the mostly about tipping feet inside boots (at least that's the way I read 'em...

--Should a skier begin tilting the ski on edge by pronating/supinating the foot inside the boot before tilting the shin?
--Does this independent tilting of the foot inside the boot beneficially impact the tipping of the ski? If so, how?
--Does this benefit depend on the footbed allowing the foot to supinate/pronate inside the boot without any tilting of the cuff?
--Is this independent early foot tipping inside the boot needed not for ski control, but for comfort?

So my follow-up Q's were about the same. Does that change your answers?

 

[Sledhead]

For me anyway, I know that the duration, intensity, rate and timing of ski tipping is the first initial input of DIRT that then flows up the chain and is what highly influences the output of DIRT expressed by the angulation, inclination, rotation, flexion and extension that occurs between the CoM and BoS. This is because ski tipping is the main control of this relationship. While it is the CoM’s job to simply ride the centerline between left and right apexes, it is the BoS’s job to actually choose the line that the skis take under the CoM in carved turns. The more or less you tip, the more or less the BOS moves from side to side under the CoM. Try to imagine, in 3D, the separate paths of the CoM and BoS. Then just superimpose your skeleton into that schematic. Suddenly, the paths of the CoM and BoS, which are actually vectors with their own independent forces, are in control of how your skeleton moves as passive outputs rather than a bevy of inputs, the DIRT of which then must be managed by the skier. This is what skiing from the ground up means to me.

The eversion/inversion and supination/pronation of the ankle (subtalar - the “steering wheel” for the advanced carver) are the four motor patterns I use as direct inputs to manage tipping that, again, are in control of the outputs of angulation, inclination, rotation, flexion and extension that manages both the CoM and BoS in the three planes of movement. As tipping in turn phase one creates diversion between the two paths, it “pulls” the CoM/BoS relationship into that of inclination and extension. As tipping in turn phase three creates conversion between these two paths, it “pushes” the CoM/BoS relationship into that of angulation and flexion. These two paths (force vector) push and pull our skeleton into these movements utilizing previously generated force vector power with DIRT inherent to the turn rather than the mind of the skier. Lastly, it is the mechanically induced power of the turning ski that powers rotation, again with the DIRT inherent to the turn) Keep in mind that DIRT is the mathematical expression of flow. All four factors of which can be plotted on a single line in a bell curve graph. I technically digress ... If you are, however, “butting in” on that flow with different direct inputs from instructions derived from different technical models and frames of reference, the dance floor probably ain't gonna be yours.

 

[James]

Original questions were about the mostly about tipping feet inside boots (at least that's the way I read 'em...

Don’t we reach a maximum foot tipping in the boot fairly quickly? It’s not like you can keep going, the tibia is going to have to help with edge angle.
Not sure when this max is, I’d have to play with it on snow.

 

[François Pugh]

I continue tipping until I'm tipping in the other direction (some might call that untipping). I vary the time of untipping of the ski, sometimes sooner, sometimes later, sometimes after releasing body from the turn so that skis continue coming up under me, sometimes at the same time as I stop forcing my body around the turn, depending on what I want to do next. I vary the rate of tipping, depending on if I think I want my tracks separating or coming together faster than they are so doing. Tracks need to be wider at apex - long leg short leg position needs separation on the snow.

Three paths in constant state of flux: left ski, right ski, centre of mass. Forced to operate as a system by skeleton, with degrees of freedom provided by joints.

It occurs to me, just now, that I do for some unknown reason tend to have skis go through flat simultaneously (tracks don't lie); I'll have to play and see if I can vary that this up-coming season just for fun. Maybe it's a function of body geometry . Give me some time to think about it.

 

[mister moose]

just another point on the continuum of lightness.

I like that description. And it illuminates that the binary on snow / off snow really is a continuum. Well, until you're off snow, that's pretty much the end of the line for lightness.

It doesn't have to be the result of excessive extension, which your post seems to imply. ... Nor does it always signal some kind of compromise of the next turn.

It's not excessive if it isn't undesired.

 

[geepers]

Don’t we reach a maximum foot tipping in the boot fairly quickly? It’s not like you can keep going, the tibia is going to have to help with edge angle.
Not sure when this max is, I’d have to play with it on snow.

Would have thought so. Question is: once on the skis are on edge and we're balancing on them with further tipping of the skis coming from shortening the inside leg do ppl continue to tip their feet as far as they can or let their feet settle on the footbed?

For me anyway, I know that the duration, intensity, rate and timing of ski tipping is the first initial input of DIRT that then flows up the chain and is what highly influences the output of DIRT expressed by the angulation, inclination, rotation, flexion and extension that occurs between the CoM and BoS.

So what's the 1st thing you move to tip the ski: Foot? Knee? Other? Forget the 1st turn - what happens to get you out of old turn into new turn?

 

[Sledhead]

James, for high performance carving, there are fundamentals of timing that are very typically adhered to. Max tipping is very typically reached in the area of the apex/fall line in turn phase two. Max tipping in turn phase one would be considered rushing the process of a fully carved turn and where an element of patience is often suggested to allow the turn to develop w/a bit of inclination. Turn phase two is where the max tipping angle is typically reached, held onto, timed, slowed or delayed for turn shaping, sizing and choosing where to release into the next turn. Much about every turn phase is in preparing for and entering into the next one.

However, tipping (rolling) never stops or slows during transition so as to waste no time for edge change. Because a major goal in modern carving is to spread the forces, there is no longer any straight line travel between turns which means fully rolling the ski through transition. For the performance carver, tipping angle is everything. The duration, intensity, rate and timing of the tipping angle will be the prescription of DIRT that flows up the chain because it is the main direct input that is in control of the movements of the BoS which then is in control of the CoM to BoS relationship. Unfortunately, while there are many ways to say it, there is no one way that everyone will identify with.


Francios, I wouldn’t say that tracks “need” to be wider at apex. I would, instead, refer to this as a non-actionable insight, and a developmental wolf in sheep's clothing. The term “need” suggests a purposeful input. With high equal tipping and outside pressure dominance, an automatic outcome will be more vertical separation between the feet. It is a mechanical output from the geometry of the ski and skeleton. It is the same for long leg/short leg. Just a geometric output of high equal tipping against the hard ground. It is not, however, a directive for anyone to follow. That would be kin to just adding another unnecessary input such as it would be to coach someone to choose a stance width based on a specific measurement and requiring that direct input rather than it being an automated systemic outcome from getting some equitable participation of the inside ski. Imagine having to choose a different stance width for each turn phase. That is a wolf that will bite you in the ass. Equal tipping at the maximum angle, again, typically in turn phase two, requires a skeletal alignment that produces a natural stance width that is typically wider than from the mechanics involved in turn phase one and three.

In regards to your last question. It is the feet. While my chain is pretty quiet, I have very busy feet inside my boots. While the inclination of my entire chain does feed into tipping of the lower shaft, it is more in response to what my feet are doing rather than in support of it. Eversion, inversion, pronation, suppenation, dorsiflexion and plantarflexion from the foot/ankle complex gives me 360 degrees of pressure control of my upper cuff. If I am piloting my CoM in the right direction, I don’t even have to think about what my lower shafts are doing. My main initial turn inputs are at the feet from which just about everything above that becomes an output except for maybe the pole plant. I speak only as a demonstrable function of my technical model. I find it much more difficult to speak to what others are doing without knowing what they are thinking. Please excuse all the technical jargon. I am an insufferable nerd.

 

[François Pugh]

Wether you call it a need a geometrical imperative or an outcome, long leg-short leg foot tipping, tipping angle horizontal/vertical separation balance and alignment of forces all works together as the skis progress forwards in time and space, and it all works better when intent is in accordance.

 

[James]

Max tipping is very typically reached in the area of the apex/fall line in turn phase two. Max tipping in turn phase one would be considered rushing the process of a fully carved turn and

We were talking about tipping the foot in the boot, not the overall tipping of the ski.