Why don't you just watch the explanation on YouTube first. .
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Toppling
- Thread starter Skitechniek
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By the way, the USSA coach I work with suggested to me (and I bought him a Gellie subscription, so he's been watching) that the topple doesn't necessarily come from high up on the body, that in his mind it could start with the hips, which is what he said Mikaela is doing on her short turns.
He at first also didn't like the term or concept of topple, but the more he watched the videos the more he came to understand it and realize that it is something he's always done.
He at first also didn't like the term or concept of topple, but the more he watched the videos the more he came to understand it and realize that it is something he's always done.
You said:
What does that even mean? Does that mean you only ski on FIS GS skis with a 30 or 35 meter radius? Does it mean that you only make turns of that radius?
Either way seems pretty limiting and not broadly applicable to a general skiing audience.
@JESinstr, you misunderstood my post asking for personal experience vs video of others. I described the releases from the point of view of the skier upthread. Flex this leg, extend that one, etc. You asked for confirmation referring to what that camera captures. I sensed we were approaching the issue from different frames of reference. Inside/outside descriptions, descriptions from inside the skier aware of body movements, descriptions from outside the skier from camera captures. I was trying to keep the discussion reflecting what the skier does, that's all.
I agree, Mikaela doesn't think about body movements independently, as instructors need to do to teach. And to talk about technique on this forum.
Tom Gillie you certainly have stirred a lot of interest with you videos and toppling. I am glad to see that you had the same concerns with the word "toppling" that I have. My thoughts are why I have not commented in this thread. For lack of a better word, "toppling" is okay I guess. I have my concerns about how many people will get it right. I see a bunch of posts here that I believe do not get your meaning correct. When people don't understand, they go to the root of the word, dissect and beat it to death for it's true meaning even though you have a more pragmatic definition. I too have not found the English language to be totally adequate for description. Trying to describe feelings in skiing is often fraught with inaccuracies and false interpretations. I don't know how to get around it. I don't know it all like I use to.
To me it doesn't feel like toppling but I suspect that if you have never done it, toppling is what it would feel like. I am not even sure I am still doing a toppling type of movement as I change edges by steering the skis into the old turn until the skis are on the new edges. The result is not a 2-4-2 turn transition but more of a bowtie look in the snow tracks The new edge engagement is far less than a ski length long like you get with a traditional 2-4-2 edge change. What I do feels more like driving my momentum into an even earlier edge higher in the turn, followed by a progressive extension and I suppose falling into the fall line. My turn transitions makes for some very interesting turn dynamics, like carving much shorter radius turns further across the fall line without the loss of power. I feel a swing set effect through the fall line.
To me it doesn't feel like toppling but I suspect that if you have never done it, toppling is what it would feel like. I am not even sure I am still doing a toppling type of movement as I change edges by steering the skis into the old turn until the skis are on the new edges. The result is not a 2-4-2 turn transition but more of a bowtie look in the snow tracks The new edge engagement is far less than a ski length long like you get with a traditional 2-4-2 edge change. What I do feels more like driving my momentum into an even earlier edge higher in the turn, followed by a progressive extension and I suppose falling into the fall line. My turn transitions makes for some very interesting turn dynamics, like carving much shorter radius turns further across the fall line without the loss of power. I feel a swing set effect through the fall line.
Have you ever gone through the usual progressions that teach OLR? Flexing the old outside leg lightens the old outside ski underfoot pressure, so that pressure transfers to the little toe edge of the new outside ski. The skis seamlessly roll to their new edges. Maybe you haven't experienced this???
With OLR/flexion release, the body does not have to go upward as much as with ILE to get inside the new turn. It gets inside faster than with ILE because it travels inside along a somewhat straighter, shorter route. The transfer is "clean" and solid. There is no reason to think the skier will end up doing a White Pass Turn by default, nor that the new outside ski will skid. Just doesn't happen.
I'm curious. What awful things do you think happen with a flexion release?
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Lol, thanks for the response!
Well, for me there’s a correlation between amount of clothes on and quality of watching the video.
Correlation isn’t causation, but maybe on snow encourages a more cogent presentation. I do exaggerate.But, tbh, haven’t watched that many of the fully clothed ones on snow. as the others. Comes down to editing on the cell phone ones probably. I have certainly enjoyed the podcasts over the years.
As to topple, it’s certainly been around for many years. My issue is it implies a singular event, as in people get to the transition and now it’s time to topple. But that’s too late. The crossing over of the body path to the ski path might happen at a singular time, but the skier has to prepare well before. It’s a movement pattern over time. No doubt that’s in your subscription video.
So, we reduce a movement pattern to one word.
Trees can topple if you cut the base of support. It only topples in the direction you want if it’s unbalanced that way. If the skier is too far uphill, releasing base of support won’t topple the body downhill. More of the lack of preparation.
Trees can sway so much from the movement of the top they overwhelm the base of support, and topple. Seems to me the toppling in skiing is a combination of the two. There are times when you can just sway the top over, and times you need to do both. But if the top of the tree isn’t heading where you want it, releasing the bottom won’t work as intended.
Maybe that’s how Davo Karnicar, skier of Mt Everest, died cutting a tree this fall. Very sad.
NY Times, Golob/Anzenberger, via Redux
Karnicar on Everest. No big toppling wanted! Truly insane. Don’t want the top too far ahead of the base, just enough to reestablish the base quickly.
Too chopped. Also in that edit, the video spends a significant amount of time on what not to do. Maybe because they don’t want to give away the answer. Usually people remember and do that.
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You are preaching to the choir regarding the value and importance of softening/shortening the old outside leg. But it isn't necessarily about release but about initiating an building new edge angles. Apparently you didn't take the time to consider my question as to what leg is driving the train in pursuit of effective circular travel.,
As I have said before, when it comes to transitions I use all the tools in the bag depending on the situation I am in and the size of turn I intend to make. But if I have my druthers, I place a priority on establishing a solid new edge on which to build my turn.
We just see things differently and we will leave it at that.
OK, all done. I don't mean any disrespect. You don't answer my questions either. We simply disagree.
Just a thought IMHO:
"Toppling" is the correct word when the outside ski is gripping on edge and the body falls into the inside of the turn. Just as a lumberjack topples a tree.
"Overturning" (i.e., "moment") is probably a more appropriate word when the skis are in the air and are being steered and are reaching for grip to arc around a gate. Because both the body and the skis are moving in relation to the surface. I.e., skis are moving outward centrifugally and actually slightly upward vis a vis gravity, while body also moves downward vis a vis gravity.
Tom Gellie's Videos are Well Worth it in my Opinion
Watch and all will become clear. Not necessarily doable, but at least observable.
"Toppling" is the correct word when the outside ski is gripping on edge and the body falls into the inside of the turn. Just as a lumberjack topples a tree.
"Overturning" (i.e., "moment") is probably a more appropriate word when the skis are in the air and are being steered and are reaching for grip to arc around a gate. Because both the body and the skis are moving in relation to the surface. I.e., skis are moving outward centrifugally and actually slightly upward vis a vis gravity, while body also moves downward vis a vis gravity.
Tom Gellie's Videos are Well Worth it in my Opinion
Watch and all will become clear. Not necessarily doable, but at least observable.
Thread Starter
TS
Yes, I only ski FIS GS skis with 30 or 35 meter radius.
@dj61
Thanks for the vid!
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So I guess toppling indeed is upper body inclination early in the turn. I am definitely against that and here's why.
Sure, toppling happens sometimes in high level skiing, not every turn is perfect and there are no rules fore technique in racing. You do whatever you can to squeeze those turns out.
Go to 1.04 e.g., Hirscher is definitely not skiing from the feet up in those turns. He's throwing his upper body into the turn. Does it matter? No. Edge angle is edge angle, it doesn't matter how you get there, I don't care if you tip with the feet or go face first to the inside of the turn, physics doesn't care. 50 degrees of edge angle is 50 degrees of edge angle and it will give you more or less the same performance/turning radius. The difference will be negligible.
An important thing to note though is that every time the upper body gets thrown into the turn, he was light and even airborne in transition and a stivot happened to pinch the line/avoid the top of the turn. The edge angle and edge engagement therefore occured when he was already basically in the fall line. But if there is no edge engagement, it matters even less how you get inside of the turn. Throw your body in, go face first, who cares, as long as you are balanced over the outside once you engage. If you look at the Hirscher vid, you see engagement start very late when he throws himself into the turn, always around the fall line.
Nevertheless it will still be normally considered a technical flaw in racing schools or the Austrian ski school system e.g., which is really focussed on outside ski pressure and proper upper body posture over the outside ski. Another reason I don't like it is because high level sports is about being consistent, it's not about the best you can do, but how good is your bad. And the simpler the movement, the less body parts are flailing around, the more reproducable your skiing/results will be.
Furthermore toppling for early edge engagement makes skiing so much harder.
I'd much rather prefer to teach someone to ski like this:
Very late edge angle, but way easier to learn. And way easier to commit to the outside ski. It's easier to learn due to how a ski behaves. The turning radius of a ski becomes smaller once a turn progresses, even if you don't tip the ski more. This is because edge angle of a ski relative to slope is different above the fall line compared to below the fall line, even if you don't tip more. Basically your edge angle increases, without increasing your edge angle if that makes sense. In a slalom turn for example the top of turn will probably have radius 25 and the bottom of the turn radius 6 in high level skiing. To me it makes no sense to topple and create early edge angle in a phase of the turn where your radius is 25. Let's assume the speed is a constant, to make it easy. It will be much harder to commit to the outside ski in a part of the turn where your speed is constant x and the radius is 25 compared to a phase of the turn where the speed is constant x and the radius is 6. @Tony S, so yeah, sure skiing FIS GS ski's is not applicable to a broad audience, but carving isn't either and nor is toppling. But understanding pressure and how a ski behaves in a turn is very applicable to all levels. Skiing big radius ski's really gives another perspective on how to deal with pressure imho.
Below is one of my turns where I toppled myself to the ground on a gs 35m ski, very early in the turn.
Here, instead of toppling I tipped myself down, same ski, same slope:
As you can see the turn where I toppled had a lot more problems than the one I did not topple. Sure, compared to the fall line I was way earlier on edge, and there was more edge angle. I was on the ground before the fall line. But as a result, I had little to no deflection across the hill, I ended up on the inside and unbalanced, I had to widen my stance coming out of the turn and resort to a little a-frame. I was heavy during the transition, and could not really use momentum from the ski to project myself into the new turn, which makes the transition unnecessarily longer. Problem after problem after problem after problem basically... The turn where I tipped myself to the inside was way more balanced and had far fewer mistakes is fare more applicable and attainable for the average skier. A bigger radius enlarges all the problems toppling can bring.
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@Skitechniek Thanks for the thought provoking post above. Not withstanding the gist of what you wrote, the following sentences caught my eye and prompted me to post a quick thread drift.
"But if there is no edge engagement, it matters even less how you get inside of the turn. Throw your body in, go face first, who cares, as long as you are balanced over the outside once you engage. "
Here's the rub from my instructor perspective. In PSIA land, we don't really teach balance... never have. We use the word ad nauseam but we expect students to learn it through experiential ways as they go about trying to accomplish a given task. The problem is there is proper and improper balance and if not taught proper balance, most will end up balancing in the back seat and will live a long an happy ski life from that ever ingrained perspective. From my experience many instructors also lack the proper MA skills to detect and correct balance issues until it is too late. They are too focused on getting the student to the next progression milestone given the time alloted for the lesson.
Advanced skiers and experienced racers know what proper balance is and the good ones can always figure out how to get there.
So with that caveat/comment, I really enjoyed your perspective on Toppling.
"But if there is no edge engagement, it matters even less how you get inside of the turn. Throw your body in, go face first, who cares, as long as you are balanced over the outside once you engage. "
Here's the rub from my instructor perspective. In PSIA land, we don't really teach balance... never have. We use the word ad nauseam but we expect students to learn it through experiential ways as they go about trying to accomplish a given task. The problem is there is proper and improper balance and if not taught proper balance, most will end up balancing in the back seat and will live a long an happy ski life from that ever ingrained perspective. From my experience many instructors also lack the proper MA skills to detect and correct balance issues until it is too late. They are too focused on getting the student to the next progression milestone given the time alloted for the lesson.
Advanced skiers and experienced racers know what proper balance is and the good ones can always figure out how to get there.
So with that caveat/comment, I really enjoyed your perspective on Toppling.
Hmm. Seems to be a lot of WC athletes using toppling and, in particular, moving the body before the legs.
There must be something in it or they wouldn't do it.
There must be something in it or they wouldn't do it.
Thread Starter
TS
They are all airborne when they use upper body movements and they all stivot to avoid the top of the turn. I would also like to add that it's not possible to tip if you are airborne. There is no platform to tip against. Just jump and tip your legs, see what happens. It will probably end up a bit of femur rotation or inside knee drive and hardly any tipping. You have to use upper body movements to get the ski on edge while in the air. But that doesn't mean it's good technique once you engage and do have a platform to tip against.
And I've never argued against moving the body before the legs, I've said plenty of times on this forum that every transition starts from the hips/core. You have to raise the CoM before leg action can take over.
But if your ski's are flat on the ground, the CoM is high enough and there is a platform to tip against, you should never ever want to use your upper body to move inside.
The basis is still no upper body movement involved in getting the ski on edge. Most people don't even create enough pressure to be light, let alone airborne during transition. So why even go there? I see no application for this in a regular ski school and it doesn't need to be taught in a racing school, because this will be the default move if your ski loses contact to the snow.
I guess it's agree to disagree on this one.
And I've never argued against moving the body before the legs, I've said plenty of times on this forum that every transition starts from the hips/core. You have to raise the CoM before leg action can take over.
But if your ski's are flat on the ground, the CoM is high enough and there is a platform to tip against, you should never ever want to use your upper body to move inside.
The basis is still no upper body movement involved in getting the ski on edge. Most people don't even create enough pressure to be light, let alone airborne during transition. So why even go there? I see no application for this in a regular ski school and it doesn't need to be taught in a racing school, because this will be the default move if your ski loses contact to the snow.
I guess it's agree to disagree on this one.
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In short, yes. Although I would also say that someone needs to learn to ski from the feet up first. Then maybe you can try to learn how to use appropriate movement of the upper body to release it from the arc.
From a physics definition of toppling, I agree that you could have a rise to the point where the BoS no longer can be balanced against and the skier topples into the next turn. But that's not the way that @tomgellie seems to define toppling nor the way that I think the concept is being applied by those who use it at the highest levels of PSIA or the other ski instruction associations. Rather, they think of it as removing the base of support by removing the support of the outside leg, perhaps coupled with higher level mechanics, such as allowing the upper body to be removed from the arc prior to the feet/skis.
As to whether a retraction mechanic can result in toppling, I believe it can as I've personally performed this maneuver.
Mikeala is not meaningfully airborne in this flush even though she is toppling
And there's tons of examples in this video of toppling without being airborne. For example, just here:
BTW, one of the advocates of toppling is none other than Richie Berger, a several time demonstrator for Austria.
WOW. I "topple" at times and didn't know it - thought I was committing to going down the hill more in the steeps than on blues and here I was "toppling" and didn't know it. Amazing.
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Yes exactly
It’s more with what Francois said
To me it evokes letting something go. There is ideally a force already trying to topple you out of the old turn and you’re yielding to that, but with some sense of control. You use different parts of your body to control this rate of cross over into the next turn. To me this part of the turn is the most satisfying part as it literally is close to free falling sensation. Why people jump out of planes and jump off things. It does give you a rush