Why Cant Your Ski Boots

[Uncle-A]

Our products have been part of the MasterFit curriculum for the last 10 years. So look for bootfitters with their cert. As for NJ, Ski Barn shops in Paramus and Wayne (aka Heino’s) buy from us. With shop employee turnover (and now COVID), the only way we can tell that a shop is active is by our sales records.

Thanks, I know of the Ski Barn group of stores. The one in Lawrenceville, NJ is near me. The others you mention are about 1.75 hours away, that is not terrible distance wise but traffic wise it could be a nightmare. Thanks again.

 

[Will Hansen]

Atomic's canting kit for their boots that have an articulated sole design is actually very good, as @onenerdykid says, it offers a range from .5-3.0* and what is very interesting is that because say a flat shim like Cantology can be flipped over or reversed for left or right, the Atomic shim is a specific left or right shim. Much time and investment went into this design to have to create not just a mold for each half degree, but two of them, one for left and one for right...all for why they, and most feel is for less than 5% of the shops. I imagine to get that kit green lighted was not an easy process.

Phil, it’s actually a higher investment than that. Injection molds (cavities) for each of 4 individual parts per cant size (L and R x toe and heel). So Atomic has to have 24 molds. I don’t mean to beat on Atomic, but theirs is an expensive solution for them. And it may tend to anchor them to their current sole design. Their cousin Salomon started down the same path but bailed out and went with Cantology. For those keeping score, major boot brands that have not yet offered a canting solution are Head and Dalbello. Lange, Rossi, Salomon, Tecnica, Nordica, K2, Full Tilt, and Fischer make boot models that support Cantology.

 

[onenerdykid]

Atomic's canting kit for their boots that have an articulated sole design is actually very good, as @onenerdykid says, it offers a range from .5-3.0* and what is very interesting is that because say a flat shim like Cantology can be flipped over or reversed for left or right, the Atomic shim is a specific left or right shim. Much time and investment went into this design to have to create not just a mold for each half degree, but two of them, one for left and one for right...all for why they, and most feel is for less than 5% of the shops. I imagine to get that kit green lighted was not an easy process.

That's true, this was not exactly easy- it involved lots of CAD work and molds to be made. Ultimately, we wanted to make the ideal solution for our boots and this was the way it needed to be done. It also means that the shims fit perfectly and they don't need to be trimmed or modified in any way. Just add the shims and router the toes & heels when needed (our 0.5° shim doesn't require the toes & heels to be routered because the boot still falls within ISO 5355 specs).

 

[onenerdykid]

Phil, it’s actually a higher investment than that. Injection molds (cavities) for each of 4 individual parts per cant size (L and R x toe and heel). So Atomic has to have 24 molds. I don’t mean to beat on Atomic, but theirs is an expensive solution for them. And it may tend to anchor them to their current sole design. Their cousin Salomon started down the same path but bailed out and went with Cantology.

We didn't make that many mold cavities (you can make multiple sizes/directions within a large mold cavity) but you're right it's still CAD and mold work nonetheless.

This does mean that we are committed to the shim & grip pad interface, but also means that we've simplified our grip pad offer so ordering spares is going to be less complicated as the years go on.

Salomon's grip pad interfaces are much different and more numerous than ours, so they aren't able to use our shim system.

 

[Philpug]

We didn't make that many mold cavities (you can make multiple sizes/directions within a large mold cavity) but you're right it's still CAD and mold work nonetheless.

This does mean that we are committed to the shim & grip pad interface, but also means that we've simplified our grip pad offer so ordering spares is going to be less complicated as the years go on.

Salomon's grip pad interfaces are much different and more numerous than ours, so they aren't able to use our shim system.

If you are to commit to this design, would it would be cost effective to get your sister company, Salomon to adopt your design, maybe that way you can disperse the cost over two brands...but that would also reqire them to change their boot molds...maybe going forward? You did get the majority of their bindings

 

[onenerdykid]

If you are to commit to this design, would it would be cost effective to get your sister company, Salomon to adopt your design, maybe that way you can disperse the cost over two brands...but that would also reqire them to change their boot molds...maybe going forward? You did get the majority of their bindings

Trying to get the French to play by Austrian rules, especially when it comes to design, is a conversation you don't want to be a part of haha. Besides, we try to keep things separate whenever we can. It's best for each when we don't share too much.

Here's a fun fact that few people know: all binding projects are a 50/50 split between both brands and have been since 2010. Shift is the exception to that, which we (Atomic) funded & developed more of Salomon likes to take all of the credit here but it's really not that way at all.

 

[Will Hansen]

(our 0.5° shim doesn't require the toes & heels to be routered because the boot still falls within ISO 5355 specs).

Since this thread is becoming a nice tour of cant-related topics, and onenerdykid opened this door, I’ll step in. I don’t have my copy of the spec handy, so I’ll wing it with regard to the actual values. What he’s saying is that the spec states that the boot, say, toe height must be a certain height, plus or minus something like, say, 2mm. So if the thickness of the fat side of the cant is less than that tolerance amount X 2, then the cant can be inserted and the boot toe, in this case, need not to be routed off. They reason that both sides of the canted boot height still fall within the spec height tolerance. IMO, just because you can, does not mean you should. You’re setting up a situation where one side of the boot is held/crammed tighter in the binding than the other. Potentially, the boot can rock in the binding diminishing performance, not to mention the safety aspect. The boot/binding interface has been taken right to the limit of the spec., and not even in a consistent way. And for what purpose? The reason is cost. The boot fitter is skipping a step which makes it easier for them. They are being encouraged to do so. The customer is loosing something they don’t even know about.

The reason I get all agitated about this is that some boot folks in the industry take this position for 1.0 degree and even up to 1.5 degrees of cant. For safety and performance reasons, ALL canted boots should be routed.

 

[onenerdykid]

Since this thread is becoming a nice tour of cant-related topics, and onenerdykid opened this door, I’ll step in. I don’t have my copy of the spec handy, so I’ll wing it with regard to the actual values. What he’s saying is that the spec states that the boot, say, toe height must be a certain height, plus or minus something like, say, 2mm. So if the thickness of the fat side of the cant is less than that tolerance amount X 2, then the cant can be inserted and the boot toe, in this case, need not to be routed off. They reason that both sides of the canted boot height still fall within the spec height tolerance. IMO, just because you can, does not mean you should. You’re setting up a situation where one side of the boot is held/crammed tighter in the binding than the other. Potentially, the boot can rock in the binding diminishing performance, not to mention the safety aspect. The boot/binding interface has been taken right to the limit of the spec., and not even in a consistent way. And for what purpose? The reason is cost. The boot fitter is skipping a step which makes it easier for them. They are being encouraged to do so. The customer is loosing something they don’t even know about.

The reason I get all agitated about this is that some boot folks in the industry take this position for 1.0 degree and even up to 1.5 degrees of cant. For safety and performance reasons, ALL canted boots should be routed.

Of course, boots should always be measured and checked. I can say what I said with certainty, however, because the alpine norm ISO 5355 requires the toe of the boot to be 19mm +/- 1mm and the heel to be 30mm +/- 1mm, and all of our normed boots are 19mm/30mm. This means that a binding needs to accommodate an 18/29mm combination and without any adjustment a 20/31mm combination- a full 2mm variance at both the toe and the heel. Every binding has this 2mm of automatic adaptation. The thickest part of our 0.5° shim is 0.75mm, which is still within the norm tolerances and less than what a binding needs to account for. But, again and of course, measure and check.

 

[bud heishman]

How do you all feel about ski width in relation to canting

Personally I am not going to change my canting for different skis!, However; Volkl has begun increasing factory base bevels on their wider skis to 1.2 degrees and more to loosen the ski up at initiation and it works very nicely. Had the opportunity to ski some at last Spring's trade fair in Mammoth on firmer snow and it seems to be a good solution. The challenge is recreating these incremental base bevels after the first tune up. SVST does not make a 1.2, 1.3.... base bevel guide. Base bevel is the fourth parameter that can be changed to affect the frontal plane! Bootboard/footbed, cuff cant, boot sole cant, base bevel.

 

[Philpug]

I like to add the following disclaimer from time to time: When replying in a thread, you are not just answering the people in the thread but also the thousands of eyes reading it.

For those reading: This is a 401 level thread, meaning do NOT try this at home. If you have a question on if your boots should be canted, make an appointment at a MasterFit trained bootfitter.

 

[bud heishman]

For those reading: This is a 401 level thread, meaning do NOT try this at home. If you have a question on if your boots should be canted, make an appointment at a MasterFit trained bootfitter.

A "Masterfit trained bootfitter" should not be a prerequisite just as there are many different levels of instructors and coaches. A "certified" instructor doesn't mean that much until you get to level III and even then choose wisely!

 

[Philpug]

A "Masterfit trained bootfitter" should not be a prerequisite just as there are many different levels of instructors and coaches.

Yes, there are a lot of qualified fitters out there.

 

[Will Hansen]

The thickest part of our 0.5° shim is 0.75mm... But, again and of course, measure and check.

Basic geometry tells us that a right triangle with a .5 degree angle and a side length of 69mm (ISO 5355 nominal sole width) would have a short side length of .602mm. Subtract that from your .75mm means the thin edge of your .5 degree cant is .15mm. That’s 0.0059” and a sheet of printer paper is about 0.004”. So that’s a pretty amazing feat of injection molding. Seriously, is Atomic doing this? I suppose you could make your cants less than 69mm wide and thus get down to 0.00mm at the edge of the sole. I’m not being snarky. I’m honestly interested. Care to post a photo?

 

[DanoT]

Rather than start a new thread I thought I would just revive this one.

I got my left boot canted today.

The back story is that 45 years ago i crashed a hang glider and broke my femur (thighbone) and ever since my left leg has been markedly weaker and I favour it when skiing by often putting a a disproportionate amount of weight on my right leg.

I am in my early 70s and have lost strength, stamina and muscle mass recently and last season my left knee started giving me pain when skiing (and walking my dog) so I started wearing a soft knee brace, sort of like a compression sock for the knee. By summer my knee felt fine and the brace was no longer needed, but the knee pain returned at the start of the ski season so, so did the knee brace AND this is when I noticed that my left knee was slightly bowed out.

I went to a ski shop whose owner is a former racer and highly regarded boot fitter and knowledgeable ski tech guy. I didn't deal directly with the shop owner but the two employees that I did deal with were on the phone with him on a couple of occasions.

This shop uses the Atomic shim system and they began with a plumb bob and the starting point I was told was not the centre of the knee cap but the centre of mass of the knee. My right knee lined up so that the plumb bob pointed to between my big toe and the next toe over. The left knee plumb bob, however pointed to just to the left of my middle toe. Off centre but not by all that much, imo.

Next the shop did a maximum boot cuff adjustment (maybe .5*?). The they did a temporary remount of my binding with a shim of 1-2mm under the let side of the binding using a couple sheets of plastic, creating approx .5*shim. I then went out a skied some runs to see how the adjustments felt.

I reported back that the skis felt fine but that I was of the opinion that that prior to the shims I was probably subconsciously making body/leg adjustment anyways AND I am not a finesse skier, rather I am more like a strong advanced flail-er, so detecting fine adjustments is difficult. They then removed the temporary shims and remounted the binding.

The first shop guy that did the plumb bob was at lunch and a second guy did the binding remount and he said that he was thinking of using the Atomic .5* shim on my Head Avant-Edge boot but would first talk to the other shop guy and the store owner.

When I came back to the shop the next day I was told that after the store owner and the shop guys talked it over they concluded that adding an Atomic shim to the Head boot was going to require drilling holes, and other mods and would leave a gap at the back of the boot where there was some sole plate wear from walking in the boots. So instead of shims, they ground down the inside edge of the bootboard.

I am very happy with this solution as my own initial though was grinding the bootboard but I didn't want to do it myself with no previous experience and I wanted some expert boot fitter input. I also didn't think I needed major adjustments but I also wanted to address my out of alignment knee and not ignore it.

A sign on the shop wall lists "boot adjustment work: $70(cdn)/hour". They only charged me $15 +tax . I should add that in the past 2 weeks I have brought in 3 pairs of skis for the DPS Phantom waxless treatment at $179cdn +tax per pair, so I am actually one of the shop's best new customers.

 

[onenerdykid]

I would not suggest using the Atomic canting shims on a Head boot- these shims are specifically designed for Atomic's shell & grip pad interface and it won't line up correctly with Head's shell & grip pad mold line. And I am fairly sure Head has some sort of shim or canted grip pad for their replaceable sole boots- can a Head dealer or rep confirm/deny that?

 

[PeteW]

I am not a Head dealer or rep but from old catalogue of theirs you can see there is something called Head Canting System

 

[LiquidFeet]

Rather than start a new thread I thought I would just revive this one.

I got my left boot canted today.

The back story is that 45 years ago i crashed a hang glider and broke my femur (thighbone) and ever since my left leg has been markedly weaker and I favour it when skiing by often putting a a disproportionate amount of weight on my right leg.

I am in my early 70s and have lost strength, stamina and muscle mass recently and last season my left knee started giving me pain when skiing (and walking my dog) so I started wearing a soft knee brace, sort of like a compression sock for the knee. By summer my knee felt fine and the brace was no longer needed, but the knee pain returned at the start of the ski season so, so did the knee brace AND this is when I noticed that my left knee was slightly bowed out.

I went to a ski shop whose owner is a former racer and highly regarded boot fitter and knowledgeable ski tech guy. I didn't deal directly with the shop owner but the two employees that I did deal with were on the phone with him on a couple of occasions.

This shop uses the Atomic shim system and they began with a plumb bob and the starting point I was told was not the centre of the knee cap but the centre of mass of the knee. My right knee lined up so that the plumb bob pointed to between my big toe and the next toe over. The left knee plumb bob, however pointed to just to the left of my middle toe. Off centre but not by all that much, imo.

Next the shop did a maximum boot cuff adjustment (maybe .5*?). The they did a temporary remount of my binding with a shim of 1-2mm under the let side of the binding using a couple sheets of plastic, creating approx .5*shim. I then went out a skied some runs to see how the adjustments felt.

I reported back that the skis felt fine but that I was of the opinion that that prior to the shims I was probably subconsciously making body/leg adjustment anyways AND I am not a finesse skier, rather I am more like a strong advanced flail-er, so detecting fine adjustments is difficult. They then removed the temporary shims and remounted the binding.

The first shop guy that did the plumb bob was at lunch and a second guy did the binding remount and he said that he was thinking of using the Atomic .5* shim on my Head Avant-Edge boot but would first talk to the other shop guy and the store owner.

When I came back to the shop the next day I was told that after the store owner and the shop guys talked it over they concluded that adding an Atomic shim to the Head boot was going to require drilling holes, and other mods and would leave a gap at the back of the boot where there was some sole plate wear from walking in the boots. So instead of shims, they ground down the inside edge of the bootboard.

I am very happy with this solution as my own initial though was grinding the bootboard but I didn't want to do it myself with no previous experience and I wanted some expert boot fitter input. I also didn't think I needed major adjustments but I also wanted to address my out of alignment knee and not ignore it.

A sign on the shop wall lists "boot adjustment work: $70(cdn)/hour". They only charged me $15 +tax . I should add that in the past 2 weeks I have brought in 3 pairs of skis for the DPS Phantom waxless treatment at $179cdn +tax per pair, so I am actually one of the shop's best new customers.

This description is a great example of why bootfitting is sometimes called an "art."

 

[Uncle-A]

Rather than start a new thread I thought I would just revive this one.

I got my left boot canted today.

The back story is that 45 years ago i crashed a hang glider and broke my femur (thighbone) and ever since my left leg has been markedly weaker and I favour it when skiing by often putting a a disproportionate amount of weight on my right leg.

I am in my early 70s and have lost strength, stamina and muscle mass recently and last season my left knee started giving me pain when skiing (and walking my dog) so I started wearing a soft knee brace, sort of like a compression sock for the knee. By summer my knee felt fine and the brace was no longer needed, but the knee pain returned at the start of the ski season so, so did the knee brace AND this is when I noticed that my left knee was slightly bowed out.

I went to a ski shop whose owner is a former racer and highly regarded boot fitter and knowledgeable ski tech guy. I didn't deal directly with the shop owner but the two employees that I did deal with were on the phone with him on a couple of occasions.

This shop uses the Atomic shim system and they began with a plumb bob and the starting point I was told was not the centre of the knee cap but the centre of mass of the knee. My right knee lined up so that the plumb bob pointed to between my big toe and the next toe over. The left knee plumb bob, however pointed to just to the left of my middle toe. Off centre but not by all that much, imo.

Next the shop did a maximum boot cuff adjustment (maybe .5*?). The they did a temporary remount of my binding with a shim of 1-2mm under the let side of the binding using a couple sheets of plastic, creating approx .5*shim. I then went out a skied some runs to see how the adjustments felt.

I reported back that the skis felt fine but that I was of the opinion that that prior to the shims I was probably subconsciously making body/leg adjustment anyways AND I am not a finesse skier, rather I am more like a strong advanced flail-er, so detecting fine adjustments is difficult. They then removed the temporary shims and remounted the binding.

The first shop guy that did the plumb bob was at lunch and a second guy did the binding remount and he said that he was thinking of using the Atomic .5* shim on my Head Avant-Edge boot but would first talk to the other shop guy and the store owner.

When I came back to the shop the next day I was told that after the store owner and the shop guys talked it over they concluded that adding an Atomic shim to the Head boot was going to require drilling holes, and other mods and would leave a gap at the back of the boot where there was some sole plate wear from walking in the boots. So instead of shims, they ground down the inside edge of the bootboard.

I am very happy with this solution as my own initial though was grinding the bootboard but I didn't want to do it myself with no previous experience and I wanted some expert boot fitter input. I also didn't think I needed major adjustments but I also wanted to address my out of alignment knee and not ignore it.

A sign on the shop wall lists "boot adjustment work: $70(cdn)/hour". They only charged me $15 +tax . I should add that in the past 2 weeks I have brought in 3 pairs of skis for the DPS Phantom waxless treatment at $179cdn +tax per pair, so I am actually one of the shop's best new customers.

It sounds like you found a good shop with a team of the owner and two good employees that worked to solve your boots issues. One of the boot guys seem more skilled than the other but at least they worked as a team. Good luck with the skiing on the modified boot.

 

[Philpug]

I am not a Head dealer or rep but from old catalogue of theirs you can see there is something called Head Canting System
View attachment 118018

It cannot be from too old of a catalog, it references GripWalk but this is not in thier current US edition.

 

[PeteW]

It is from 18-19 I think.
I can not see it in latest 20-21 catalogue but it can be found in 19-20

I'm using following site https://catalog.head.com/ it is in Hardgoods