Individual Review Crosson Dissenter 78, 185, taking a chance that paid off

[Tom K.]

You are bigger, but best guess still, on the reverse dimple/indentation dot.

That "dimple" is a LONG ways back there, and next year's boots have a bit longer sole, so I blinked and went +1.

I'll report back later this week, as winter has made a surprise -- likely cameo -- reappearance here!

 

[Tom K.]

Very good first impressions of the 185s mounted with Attack14s: Unflappable at speed, great edge hold, and surprisingly fun in ~4 inches of leftover new snow in bumps. Did not expect that versatility.

My only reservation is that I feel WAY back there on the ski. My boot center is just a few mm in front of the “dimple” on the ski. I’m an unabashed directional skier, but I kind of feel like I should be a cm or so forward.

So with that caveat, the ski has astounding performance attributes, but to me it also gives off an All Business vibe. Reminds me of my old Firearrow 84s that many on this forum loved, but I found dull until, oh, maybe 50 mph.

I"ll probably nudge the toe pieces forward as much as the heel tracks will allow, without redrilling to also move them forward.

 

[James]

I"ll probably nudge the toe pieces forward as much as the heel tracks will allow, without redrilling to also move them forward.

It moves?

 

[ski otter 2]

Very good first impressions of the 185s mounted with Attack14s: Unflappable at speed, great edge hold, and surprisingly fun in ~4 inches of leftover new snow in bumps. Did not expect that versatility.

My only reservation is that I feel WAY back there on the ski. My boot center is just a few mm in front of the “dimple” on the ski. I’m an unabashed directional skier, but I kind of feel like I should be a cm or so forward.

So with that caveat, the ski has astounding performance attributes, but to me it also gives off an All Business vibe. Reminds me of my old Firearrow 84s that many on this forum loved, but I found dull until, oh, maybe 50 mph.

I"ll probably nudge the toe pieces forward as much as the heel tracks will allow, without redrilling to also move them forward.

To me, these are literally a cross between a GS like race ski (with a more recreational friendly turn radius) and a Line Blade. It it like the latter in that it does not demand speed, carves much more easily than a true GS ski, yet has the hold and dynamics of a GS race ski. By dynamics, I mean it wants and rewards race ski technique, to me - and encourages that to the point of being a higher angle/race technique teaching ski - as Bode said in the Pugski video. It's both a shortcut to learning that confidence and that down the hill commitment, and a true 'cheater" or easier effort ski for that kind of race-like turn. As an older guy, this 78 is a good GS retirement ski, something I can use as I get more into my old age, to tone things down proportionately, and yet not lose the stability and ease of a race ski edge one can count on.

It's hard for me to tell what's going on with you and with your skis feeling/being too far back. For me, even though I'm a bit clumsy, I'm so used to race skis over so many years, both SL and even more GS, that those can easily become just what I'm naturally used to, like riding a bike without thinking.

However, I think the problem you describe corresponds to my initial feeling of a lot of tip out there in front of me, at the end of those 78 skis, that I had to take into account more.

I can just relate to you how that seems to correspond to what I've been experiencing as I get more in synch with this ski, hoping that can help you.

At first I felt that there was a lot of tip in particular in front of me if I just skied these as if they were an all mountain ski, using that technique - at times more upright, less dynamic, more whole body lean, maybe even more ankle and knee turning, less angle, less arch centeredness, less downhill anticipation/lean/into the fall line, whatever. I had to get more racer-like quickly. (Think what Bode Miller - or any racer - is doing naturally, with easy effort instead of maximum effort.)

To me, as soon as I use slightly more race ski technique - ski them the way I would an FIS GS ski just a bit - then suddenly that feeling of having a lot of tip (or ski) in front of me goes away completely. At that point, as I adjust to what the ski is doing and likes, I get that it does not actually demand or need full on race ski hard driving and effort: just the basics of this, relaxed into.

Then, just as suddenly, I found that with that more relaxed and intuitive bit of race ski feel/technique, but with these skis much more forgiving, less demanding, this was easy to the point of being something I could keep up in an effortless, safe way for hours, very much like the effortless turns of the Line Blade - really automatic, in a groove like dancing. And on that smaller radius, this skiing was something that would fit in with other skiers, not require huge empty space or speed for turning. Wow.

The Line Blade side of this ski - I think in the shallow "V" or fan shape from in front of the boots to the tips - really comes out then, in that these skis are not demanding or hooky at those same tips, once used right: without that extra technique, they can start to get hung up and even straightline on edge, but with that extra race thing going, then, presto, very stable: and then they have a bombproof, safe quality to them. Once you are dialed, these skis become forgiving, not demanding or unforgiving like a GS race ski can be until one is used to them.

That's about what I got, Mr. Tom.

 

[ski otter 2]

It moves?

I take it you mean the bindings, not the earth beneath my feet.

Yeah, but the skis come flat, so it moves if the bindings you add move.

 

[Tom K.]

It moves?

To clarify, I determined that I could slide the heel pieces forward on their tracks 13 mm, so I simply remounted the toe pieces 10 mm forward. I'll report back on how that feels.

To me, these are literally a cross between a GS like race ski (with a more recreational friendly turn radius) and a Line Blade.

I'm so used to race skis over so many years, both SL and even more GS, that those can easily become just what I'm naturally used to, like riding a bike without thinking.

They do feel like a GS race ski, which I haven't been on in ages. Unflappable at speed. Smooth like syrup flowing down the hill.

Honestly, I think they may simply be a stiffer, higher speed ski than I was expecting. And that's fine. Big boy ski for solo days (or failing miserably to keep @chris_the_wrench in sight).

But the bigger thing is that the back half of the ski feels a little oddly locked-in. I'll report back once I ski them with the bindings moved forward a bit -- interestingly, the exact opposite direction I normally would lean towards with most modern skis, but my BC "dimples" are at about -12 cm!

Thanks for all the input.

 

[cantunamunch]

But the bigger thing is that the back half of the ski feels a little oddly locked-in. I'll report back once I ski them with the bindings moved forward a bit -- interestingly, the exact opposite direction I normally would lean towards with most modern skis, but my BC "dimples" are at about -12 cm!

Thanks for all the input.

Which boots you using?

 

[ski otter 2]

One danger moving forward on such a ski (with such a dialed in ellipse of some sort to the side shape also), is that that there will then feel like too much tail, with that feeling at least odd, maybe headed towards feeling like a drag line or a rudder drag, just slightly. I have to say at the inverted dimple, I feel only the tip out there, the tail kind of neutral, not noticeable yet (to me probably a good thing).

Yeah, with such skis, boots start making a difference sometimes. Since these have a GS feel, they would like relatively softer race boots, not super stiff ones - but still race boots. The fact that Bode prototyped them on Full Tilts, probably with a stiffer "race" tongue (but still with a pronounced, even, forward flex), sort of backs that theory.

I'm using Lange consumer race boots, RS 130s, that do have a very dialed in, easy, GS "softer" type race flex that's very dialed in for me.

 

[cantunamunch]

One danger moving forward on such a ski (with such a dialed in ellipse of some sort to the side shape also), is that that there will then feel like too much tail, with that feeling at least odd, maybe headed towards feeling like a drag line or a rudder drag, just slightly.

LOL, I am totally thinking of Palmer's clothoid sidecut as I read this.

 

[Tom K.]

Which boots you using?

Hawx Ultra 130S @ 29.5 so plenty of forward lean @ 15 degrees, which I prefer.

Redster Club Sports coming in September!

My remount puts me at just + 1.5 so I'm not too worried about goofing up my position w/r/t the sidecut profile.

And it's easily reversed.

 

[cantunamunch]

plenty of forward lean

I suspected as much nothing wrong with forward lean but it does change tail feel.

 

[ScotsSkier]

what about mounting them with a plate?

 

[ski otter 2]

Good question.
Your guess is probably as good as mine on a plate, maybe better. Bode had them set up without a plate - with Pivots, actually.
But I just don't know. Maybe.
Skiing them, I have not gotten a sense that I need that, or would benefit from that, but I wouldn't really know unless I tried it.
It's just that they like a race skiing style, but they seem built to make that easy.
It would be interesting to see, however. It might improve them.

I think I would ask Crosson about that directly, contacting them from their website, if interested in buying the 78. They might have something useful to say, or have prototyped the ski that way. If I find out anything more I'll post that.

 

[Tony S]

Then, just as suddenly, I found that with that more relaxed and intuitive bit of race ski feel/technique, but with these skis much more forgiving, less demanding, this was easy to the point of being something I could keep up in an effortless, safe way for hours, very much like the effortless turns of the Line Blade - really automatic, in a groove like dancing. And on that smaller radius, this skiing was something that would fit in with other skiers, not require huge empty space or speed for turning.

Pretty convincing sales pitch!

Having just spent four consecutive days on highly variable eastern spring snow at the New England Gathering, I have questions. First a couple of background statements.

• I have not been on the Line Blade. I know it's a bit polarizing. Some good skiers here have more or less derided it. (It's also hideous to look at. Did Eric Pollard design those topsheets? Normally I like his work.)
• I have race skis (among others) and am familiar with how to work them.

When compared with a slalom ski, how is the Dissenter better / worse when it comes to slicing through hard old plate ice that alternates with piles of sugar or other soft, heavy 3D snow? (Do you even have those conditions where you are?) What about compared with an 80-something frontside oriented all-mountain ski?

At a certain point things become too rough to arc turns, even on what might have been a groomer in the morning. At least for me this is true. Too much across-the-hill speed becomes death by pummeling. Also sometimes the surface left by the groomer simply won't allow creation of a reliable platform against which you can keep the ski bent through a whole turn. (The worst is peas / marbles / golf balls.) If you fall back on what you called "more upright all-mountain" turns, how does the Dissenter compare with the two ski types mentioned above?

 

[ARL67]

Crosson's website shows no ski info for the last few days -> probably pending Bode's announcement tomorrow.

As mentioned earlier, if I didn't jump in on a few 100'ish skis to futz around with for next season, I would have ordered the D78 175 and put on a PRD 12 GW binding ( I like stack height on a narrow ski ). Of course those D78 may now be "obsolete" pending tomorrow's Bode news. I'll be curious if an inexpensive offering like the D78 remains in the line-up, I hope so .

 

[Tom K.]

I think I would ask Crosson about that directly, contacting them from their website, if interested in buying the 78. They might have something useful to say, or have prototyped the ski that way. If I find out anything more I'll post that.

I pinged them on mount point several days ago, and it's been crickets......

Crosson's website shows no ski info for the last few days -> probably pending Bode's announcement tomorrow.

As mentioned earlier, if I didn't jump in on a few 100'ish skis to futz around with for next season, I would have ordered the D78 175 and put on a PRD 12 GW binding ( I like stack height on a narrow ski ). Of course those D78 may now be "obsolete" pending tomorrow's Bode news. I'll be curious if an inexpensive offering like the D78 remains in the line-up, I hope so .

Interesting. I had no idea. Possibly some changes coming.

Day 2 for me today. Impressions follow.

 

[ski otter 2]

what about mounting them with a plate?

I emailed them about mounting with a plate (not a full race binding and plate, so don't know about that.)
The answer I got was from

Chase Englehart @crossonski.com​

:

"A few people have put plates on them. I plan on putting plates on my personal pair. If you look up Banks Gilberti’s “trench diggers 5” video he has plates on that pair. It allows you a lot more angles on the skis. Hope this helps!"

Thanks for the question, @ScotsSkier.

I've just gotten my second pair through the mail, and now I'll probably/maybe now put plates on them, so.... What binding (and plate) would you put on top of that?

(Below is a close up freeze of a frame from "trench digger 5" (with a copied link to that video) to figure out the binding and plate he is using. Can anyone tell what that is? )

 

[EricG]

@ski otter 2 thats the marker piston plate. There are a handful of compatible bindings.

 

[ski otter 2]

Pretty convincing sales pitch!

Having just spent four consecutive days on highly variable eastern spring snow at the New England Gathering, I have questions. First a couple of background statements.

• I have not been on the Line Blade. I know it's a bit polarizing. Some good skiers here have more or less derided it. (It's also hideous to look at. Did Eric Pollard design those topsheets? Normally I like his work.)
• I have race skis (among others) and am familiar with how to work them.

When compared with a slalom ski, how is the Dissenter better / worse when it comes to slicing through hard old plate ice that alternates with piles of sugar or other soft, heavy 3D snow? (Do you even have those conditions where you are?) What about compared with an 80-something frontside oriented all-mountain ski?

At a certain point things become too rough to arc turns, even on what might have been a groomer in the morning. At least for me this is true. Too much across-the-hill speed becomes death by pummeling. Also sometimes the surface left by the groomer simply won't allow creation of a reliable platform against which you can keep the ski bent through a whole turn. (The worst is peas / marbles / golf balls.) If you fall back on what you called "more upright all-mountain" turns, how does the Dissenter compare with the two ski types mentioned above?

I don't know, at least yet.
I only will ski them here in Colorado, and not in too challenging situations (old guy), but will ski them in spring slush that has gone from hard refreeze in the morning, through ice patch transitions, to full on slush slop, slush piles, and uneven that tends to punish by pummeling, as you mention, by at least 11 or so. It's going to be some weeks before Colo skiing comes to that, you know!

My go to ski for our Colo version of that, like maybe for you, has been an FIS SL ski, men's or women's. I doubt if these 78s can take the place of that, or come close, but we shall see.

Also: the cons of this 78 ski, so far, that I've noticed, are that it seems to have some of the downside of a race ski on hard uneven or in hard bumps: a bit bone jarring at times there; but so far I've avoided runs like that mostly. Even so, these are damper than race skis, most race skis, at least. (The rubber at the tips and edges, probably.) They will not take the place of a good, damp all mountain ski for most, don't think, so far. Nor a good off piste ski/pivoter. Nor some top freeride boards. Nor a good powder/crud ski. Hence the wider version(s) offered by Dissenter/Bode/Crosson, I gather.

On that note, wonder what the big deal announcement is going to be come tomorrow at noon? Hope it's worth the hype.

 

[ski otter 2]

@ski otter 2 thats the marker piston plate. There are a handful of compatible bindings.

Any way to tell if those are 10mm or 14mm? Would it matter?
And I think these have a heel height +2 over toe or something - maybe the reverse, toe higher, dunno. (Maybe it's just the bindings that are higher.)

I know those interface with XComps and X-Cells. Not sure what else. Any all mountain bindings? Excuse my ignorance.