Do I have to carve?

[François Pugh]

A person in a snowplow turn is moving in circular motion; he is traveling in a curve, with his direction changing, and not traveling linearly. He is not carving arc-2-arc. His outside ski is trying hard to carve that turn, hard enough to create circular motion, but nor hard enough to create a pure carved turn. Same thing can be said for 95% of the folks on most any given hill on most any day making parallel turns.

 

[JESinstr]

A person in a snowplow turn is moving in circular motion; he is traveling in a curve, with his direction changing, and not traveling linearly. He is not carving arc-2-arc. His outside ski is trying hard to carve that turn, hard enough to create circular motion, but nor hard enough to create a pure carved turn. Same thing can be said for 95% of the folks on most any given hill on most any day making parallel turns.

Totally Agree! That's why I view carving as the process of creating circular motion governed by a quality component. A pure carved turn is a 10 and we go down from there based on skill level or desired outcome. Adopting this philosophy allows the instructor to focus on the needed carving skills at the beginner level and build on that going forward.

As an aside. The video by Lorenz on body mass shifting is a crucial element. Getting a beginner to trigger the shift of body mass to the inside edge of the outside ski through a release of pressure on the inside ski, develops a more precise means of balance and with that, the move out of wedge to a parallel configuration can happen sooner rather than later.

 

[François Pugh]

@JESinstr
While the way you look at it is different and took a little effort for me to follow, I can certainly appreciate it and believe it works well for you and your students.
The only thing missing in terms of distinguishing arc-2-arc carving from other skiing, as compared to my experience, is the sharp division I feel between the two.
In my experience, it's not like the difference between your Michelin pilot's tracking and beginning to drift in the rain; it's not even the difference between the same on Goodyears; it's more like a roller-coaster on rails vs off the rails. It's all about that on-rails feeling, that is so addictive. Maybe that's because much of my experience is on hard snow with uncompromising skis.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Hi everyone!

Newbie here, both to this forum and also mostly to skiing. After a couple of questionably successful days on skis as a teenager, I (now 37) tried again this year and got a couple of days in in the late season in the Austrian alps. Couple hours with an instructor, then going down blue and red (European rating) groomers with vaguely parallel skis

I'm not the fastest learner when it comes to movements and coordination, but I enjoy skiing. I'm not interested in being super fast. I just want to have fun and feel like I'm in control of my movements.

So I am wondering now:

- Do I *have* to aspire to "carve"? It feels like all instructions, both online and with the (3) instructors I had, were: learn snowplow, then go vaguely parallel, and then edge edge edge and bend your knees in ways that make me worried about my tendons. I'm exaggerating of course, but I'm a little confused by the apparent lack of other techniques? Is there anything else still?

- If I'm staying on groomers, is there ever a reason *not* to use a narrower (up to 80mm) "carving" ski? Are those always easier to turn than wider skis or could a wider ski actually be more fun on groomed runs?

Thanks a ton!

@slow yeti, this thread has produced a lot of talk among people who do actually carve. They are encouraging you to learn to carve, while also arguing amongst themselves about what "carve" means (a fun topic that comes up all the time here).

I've been wondering if your instructors were attempting to teach you to "carve" in the first place (arc-to-arc carve, with skis producing pencil-thin lines in the snow, with high speed generated) ...or if their instructions somehow got garbled and they were not teaching you to carve in that way... or if they have a much looser definition of "carve" than I do, maybe like the definition @JESinstr uses as evident in his posts upthread.

Where are you taking lessons? Are you working with different instructors each time you take a lesson? Do you know their qualifications? Are these group lessons or private lessons?

Where's your head with all the talk in this thread? Is any of it of use to you?

 

[slow yeti]

@slow yeti, this thread has produced a lot of talk among people who do actually carve. They are encouraging you to learn to carve, while also arguing amongst themselves about what "carve" means (a fun topic that comes up all the time here).

I've been wondering if your instructors were attempting to teach you to "carve" in the first place (arc-to-arc carve, with skis producing pencil-thin lines in the snow, with high speed generated) ...or if their instructions somehow got garbled and they were not teaching you to carve in that way... or if they have a much looser definition of "carve" than I do, maybe like the definition @JESinstr uses as evident in his posts upthread.

Where are you taking lessons? Are you working with different instructors each time you take a lesson? Do you know their qualifications? Are these group lessons or private lessons?

Where's your head with all the talk in this thread? Is any of it of use to you?

I think I got lost shortly after the point when I first said 'thank you' on page two or so .

My main takeaways from these answers are: the exact definition of "carving" is hotly debated but probably not entirely relevant at my current skill level. Rather, there are elements of carving, most notably getting the skis on edge, that are important even at a beginner level for greater control.

I've had three different instructors this year in Germany and Austria. All private lessons but I don't know their credentials, I booked the lessons at short notice and was assigned an instructor by the ski schools - this is something I could research before for next season.

I do enjoy reading the subsequent discussion on the finer details here, but I'll have to revisit this when I have made some progress.

On the other hand, your reply on my MA thread today has been _incredibly_ interesting and eye-opening for me, thank you so much! I'll reply to that later today.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I was wondering if you'd gotten an Austrian instructor who was actually working with you to tip the skis and ride them as they bend and slice forward - without any muscular ski rotation by the skier. That rotation slows one down to gentler speeds appropriate for crowded trails, and builds confidence for beginners and novices. For that reason most instructors in the US don't go near teaching carving until skiers are pretty competent with other types of turns.

I've seen a video done by the Austrian National Team (their top instructors) demonstrating the Austrian way to teach carving (arc-to-arc, pencil thin lines, high speed - the most frequently used definition of carving among those who can do it), so I was thinking that might be what you were being guided to do when you said you were not interested in high speed skiing.

 

[JESinstr]

@JESinstr
While the way you look at it is different and took a little effort for me to follow, I can certainly appreciate it and believe it works well for you and your students.
The only thing missing in terms of distinguishing arc-2-arc carving from other skiing, as compared to my experience, is the sharp division I feel between the two.
In my experience, it's not like the difference between your Michelin pilot's tracking and beginning to drift in the rain; it's not even the difference between the same on Goodyears; it's more like a roller-coaster on rails vs off the rails. It's all about that on-rails feeling, that is so addictive. Maybe that's because much of my experience is on hard snow with uncompromising skis.

I appreciate your point of view and I think this has be a good discussion to have. I see the qualifying term arc to arc now being inserted. Are you asserting that a wedge turner implementing the carving skill set cannot go arc to arc?

I submit that your roller coaster analogy of which I agree, is the result of the conversion of straight forces into circular forces. It is all about the technique of building Centripetal force and to me that is where the thrill of the ride and satisfaction of execution comes from.

As to the tire analogy, In dirt track racing, the drift is the goto method for handling turns. It reminds me of a Stivot.

 

[JESinstr]

I think I got lost shortly after the point when I first said 'thank you' on page two or so .

My main takeaways from these answers are: the exact definition of "carving" is hotly debated but probably not entirely relevant at my current skill level. Rather, there are elements of carving, most notably getting the skis on edge, that are important even at a beginner level for greater control.

1. A poignant comment regarding the premier function of the modern ski.
2. Understanding how the ski travels in an arc is fundamental to progress.
3. If you don't develop and properly implement the skills needed to produce circular travel, the odds of you permanently embedding the twist and brace style of skiing you currently exhibit in your MA post are substantial. Take heed of the advice @LiquidFeet gave you. All that advice is aimed at committing to and controlling the outside ski in order to create reliable and consistent circular travel, something I call carving.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Lol I was in the Caribbean for a week but the carve thread never ends!

as I said earlier, if you want to ski with your kids as they grow, you need to improve your skills. It will happen naturally even if you develop some bad habits.

A lesson or two a year, some good gear, and a good attitude will help a lot.

 

[Lvovsky /Pasha/Pavel]

I guess we’re done here.

The thread will go on for seven pages with three or more side conversations

 

[JESinstr]

Before I leave this thread on carving to die on the vine like so many before, I want to say that I have reconsidered some of my positions. But unfortunately, that doesn't lead to a solution.

I have come to the conclusion that, like a skier helplessly locked in a twist and brace methodology for turning, most advanced skiers will forever view carving as an elite maneuver vs a fundamental function of the modern shaped ski.

If we abandon the term for all skiers below advanced, what term can we agree on for the non-advanced that develops circular travel?

I thought of Steering but am I not steering when I am carving ? Or, does steering stop when carving begins?

Questions to ponder.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Steering wheels are things we turn with muscular effort.

I've always understood "steering" when applied to skiing to mean the skier is manually, muscularly, turning the skis, either with the upper body or the feet/legs. Steering = rotating, twisting, pivoting the skis. And that in such turns, the DIRT of the rotation given to the skis is the major determining factor on where the skis go, turn-shape and turn-size wise.

The quantum leap a skier experiences when he/she first gets the skis to make arc-to-arc carved turns with tails following tips deserves a term that doesn't also mean something different. In such turns there is no manual rotation given to the skis. And yes, this type of turn, controlled by manipulating the radius by controlling the edging, is definitely an advanced skill. The term "carving" has been used to refer to these turns and continues to do so for many who choose to talk about skiing.

But I'd also like to have a readily usable term for ski turns that grip at both the tail and the tip through the entire turn, and make round turns based on the bend in the ski, while slipping/skidding over the surface of hard snow. These turns are not arc-to-arc carved turns by the definition in the paragraph above, but they do rely heavily on the ski's self-turning capability.

Maybe we should start differentiating between dysfunctionally rotated turns, which skid out and/or can't be completed because the skier has undermined and overpowered the self-turning action of the ski, and those turns where the skis skid but they make turns heavily impacted by the ski's grip and bend, tail to tip.

Want to work on that, @JESinstr?

 

[James]

No and no - do not have to yet again endure that vid

Lol. See, I’d say yes, Hansi is often carving.

Honestly, if there was a vid of him just skiing, I’d rather watch him ski than the usual videos of Lorenz or McGlashan. Just because it’s far more interesting in change of rhythm, turn shapes, and using the piste. It’s fun to watch and good skiing. He’s also having fun doing it which comes across.

The other may be great skiing, but after after a few turns it’s just the same, so give me a couple and then slo mo and we’re done. Now maybe it’s fun for them, but it comes across more as like watching weight lifting or exercising is demonstrating “fun”.

Where is the vid where Lorenz? talks about weight transfer and demos one ski?

 

[geepers]

Lol. See, I’d say yes, Hansi is often carving.

Honestly, if there was a vid of him just skiing, I’d rather watch him ski than the usual videos of Lorenz or McGlashan. Just because it’s far more interesting in change of rhythm, turn shapes, and using the piste. It’s fun to watch and good skiing. He’s also having fun doing it which comes across.

The other may be great skiing, but after after a few turns it’s just the same, so give me a couple and then slo mo and we’re done. Now maybe it’s fun for them, but it comes across more as like watching weight lifting or exercising is demonstrating “fun”.

Where is the vid where Lorenz? talks about weight transfer and demos one ski?

It was Hansi's singing and outfit, not the skiing. Singing can be fixed with mute, the outfit not so much. The cheese not at all.

Otherwise not too fussed who's doing the good skiing. But it kind of helps when those skiers can explain what they are doing.

Is this he PL vid you mean?

 

[tch]

But I'd also like to have a readily usable term for ski turns that grip at both the tail and the tip through the entire turn, and make round turns based on the bend in the ski, while slipping/skidding over the surface of hard snow

YES!!!! I admit I've only visited this thread once or twice; the nitpicking over definitions and methodology here and in other instruction threads leaves me cold.

But...I am interested in being able to talk about what most intermediate/advanced skiers do on fairly steep terrain. My own $0.02 is that "carving" as defined by acr-to-arc pencil-thin tracks on a steep pitch is, in fact, the province of only a few. But lots of pretty good skiers make round turns starting with their feet/boots initiating the tip and maintaining grip throughout the ski to the tail -- while at the same time doing some slipping/skidding over hard-pack snow on black diamond terrain. It's a pretty reasonable way to keep speed under control.

So what are THOSE turns? Skidding? Almost-carving? They are certainly more advanced than the upper-body driven rotary skidding seen in beginning skiers.

 

[David Chaus]

It's actually what a lot of us instructors coach on steep terrain and bumps, focus on de-edging as needed.

De-edged turns works for me.

 

[Seldomski]

My main takeaways from these answers are: the exact definition of "carving" is hotly debated but probably not entirely relevant at my current skill level. Rather, there are elements of carving, most notably getting the skis on edge, that are important even at a beginner level for greater control.

Yes, the debate over the definition is generally unproductive. People get hung up on the idea that if you skid at all, it is no longer carving. Whether or not this is true is irrelevant. The other point of contention is whether carving should be the ultimate goal of all skiers. Knowing how to carve and choosing to carve are two different things.

Think more of 'carving' as a particular ideal of a ski turn. It is an 'extreme' way to ski, using only the edges and sidecut of the ski to arc turns. Carving teaches you to tip the ski on edge and use the edge plus the bent ski and its sidecut to change directions (turn). The resulting turn is an arc shape. BUT carving limits the use of the base of the ski and thus also limits your tactics. The base of the ski is NOT useless! Using the base (ie the bottom of the ski) to skid down the mountain is the way beginners and intermediates ski. But you also see ski racers do this (skid) when they need to change direction quickly. In moguls, skidding is critical. There is a way to use all of the ski - the edges, sidecut, and base (skidding) to have very fine control without feeling 'locked in' to a particular turn radius, which can happen when carving.

Tipping the ski on edge and riding the sidecut (carving) is a way to ski down the mountain. But its not the only way and not necessarily the most fun way for everyone. Much depends on the snow conditions and the ski you are riding. After you have achieved the 'perfect carve,' are you at the pinnacle of ski-dom? Carve/skid is a spectrum. Really it's the question of 'how much of the ski base do I want to use here.'

 

[David Chaus]

Here's a part of the goals from SnowPerformance, where I take clinics.

"Stance and Free Movement rather than carve

Our ultimate goal in developing any skier or snowboarder is to maintain good stance from which a skier can freely move and adjust his or her skis (board) to do anything at any time. This is a sharp departure from the age-old goal of having a pure carved turn be the only desired outcome. Seeking to carve every turn limits many skiers to a continuous fight between themselves and the mountain. A focus on maintaining good stance increases versatility and allows our clients to produce many outcomes, the carved turn just being one of them."

​

 

[James]

But it kind of helps when those skiers can explain what they are doing.

Hansi’s a performer not an explainer. We need more performances on skis that are interesting. Other wise, it all ends up in Japanese tech style skiing as the pinnacle with endless explanations. Talk about boring.

 

[François Pugh]

I appreciate your point of view and I think this has be a good discussion to have. I see the qualifying term arc to arc now being inserted. Are you asserting that a wedge turner implementing the carving skill set cannot go arc to arc?

I submit that your roller coaster analogy of which I agree, is the result of the conversion of straight forces into circular forces. It is all about the technique of building Centripetal force and to me that is where the thrill of the ride and satisfaction of execution comes from.

As to the tire analogy, In dirt track racing, the drift is the goto method for handling turns. It reminds me of a Stivot.

I think almost anybody can learn to carve arc-2-arc if they really want to.

As to the wedge turn, for the most part, the modern "wedge" turn involving a small v-wedge and very slight tipping of the skis will have the ski not tipped enough to get it past the critical angle required at that speed and turn force to carve arc-2-arc. I also feel that learning with the modern gliding wedge, is much more conducive to the learner being stuck with a perma-pivot, than the old snow-plough way, where the ski was at least tipped on edge a great deal, was better. Of course the danger with the old way was skiers ending up with a perma-stem. In either case the cure is to get out of the wedge and into the tip-and-rip stage, with both skis parallel and tipped to turn, before too many days are spent learning a hard-to brake habit in the early stages.

I my quest for clarity and to stamp out ambiguity, I distinguish between turns that could be called pure-carved with tails touching the same snow flake as the tips leaving clean tracks by using the term arc-2-arc for those turns.

There is more to skiing than arc-2-arc carved turns, and although the arc-2-arc turn can be used much more often in many more places than some folk would have you believe, it is not an all-purpose turn; it is not a speed-reducing turn. If you want to ski down a steep run at a slower speed, do not attempt to do so using arc-2-arc turns; we have the traditional short-radius turn for that.