Mounting Bindings with Paper Templates

[MacO512]

Considering going with the threaded inserts from bindingfreedom. I would need 8 inserts for each binding + 6 extra to move to second position (can reuse two holes in front)

Inserts x29 = $47
Screws x18 for Marker Griffon = $12
Insert drill bit (6.5mm or .257") = $17
Vibra-Tite = $7
Total = $83

It would be $56 for additional ski with additional 28 screws/inserts using two mounting spots. If only doing one mounting spot of screws/inserts its $36. If only doing inserts at one spot (re-use screws when swapping one binding between multiple skis) its $26 for inserts on each extra skis.

5/16-18 tab and handle (need to check I may already have this) = $33

Really slick idea think I will go for doing this. Huge benefit for this park/powder ski I bought I may want to alternate between front/back. But also intriguing for future ski quiver I can have just 2 bindings and move them all around to different skis. $26 for insert install on a new set of skis vs ~$300 new binding is such a great value.

 

[Dave Marshak]

... perform a test mount on a scrap piece of wood to test.

That's a good idea, and a test mount could be a single use drilling jig. That way you could check the boot length adjustment and heel to toe alignment before drilling your skis. I would want to use a long piece of something harder than dimension lumber, and a drill press so that the holes don't get skewed.

dm

 

[MacO512]

Or a drill guide.

Yeah I looked at these but seem like I'd probably need to spend at least $40 for a good one, might be tricky to setup, a basic drill press starts around only $100, and I can use its for many other projects.

 

[GB_Ski]

Forget free hand, get a drill press first before getting an optical punch.

 

[MacO512]

Forget free hand, get a drill press first before getting an optical punch.

I can see the dentist freehand being more than precise enough. For the rest of us; yeah totally agree.

 

[SlideWright]

That's a good idea, and a test mount could be a single use drilling jig. That way you could check the boot length adjustment and heel to toe alignment before drilling your skis. I would want to use a long piece of something harder than dimension lumber, and a drill press so that the holes don't get skewed.

dm

This Boot Sole Center Gauge will help. Print to scale, cut, tape to center line of ski or test piece and mark boot. Then overlay binding with boot and mark holes.

 

[SlideWright]

Considering going with the threaded inserts from bindingfreedom. I would need 8 inserts for each binding + 6 extra to move to second position (can reuse two holes in front)

Inserts x29 = $47
Screws x18 for Marker Griffon = $12
Insert drill bit (6.5mm or .257") = $17
Vibra-Tite = $7
Total = $83

It would be $56 for additional ski with additional 28 screws/inserts using two mounting spots. If only doing one mounting spot of screws/inserts its $36. If only doing inserts at one spot (re-use screws when swapping one binding between multiple skis) its $26 for inserts on each extra skis.

5/16-18 tab and handle (need to check I may already have this) = $33

Really slick idea think I will go for doing this. Huge benefit for this park/powder ski I bought I may want to alternate between front/back. But also intriguing for future ski quiver I can have just 2 bindings and move them all around to different skis. $26 for insert install on a new set of skis vs ~$300 new binding is such a great value.

It's best to perform a regular mount and test first, before drilling and installing inserts. You'll need epoxy too.

Stainless Steel Threaded Ski Insert Installation​

 

[MacO512]

I added a template for Tyrolia PowerRails. It's the simplest hole pattern so far; all measurements are either 30 or 100 mm and the spec was literally one line of code:



Hey! Protectors are cool bindings!

View attachment 183231

Super cool binding option. I guess this it the other possibility I could go with instead of using inserts. Downsides are I'd need to buy these bindings, they are 326g heavier, and they have raised height of 7/8mm vs my Marker Griffons. Positives are much simpler swap of bindings, and they have many more options of positions to adjust front/back.

 

[MacO512]

It's best to perform a regular mount and test first, before drilling and installing inserts. You'll need epoxy too.

Stainless Steel Threaded Ski Insert Installation​

Great guide!

One question - do you know the torque values for the inserts as well as machine screws?

 

[SlideWright]

Great guide!

One question - do you know the torque values for the inserts as well as machine screws?

No torque on inserts. Flush or just below ski surface. Make sure you drill deep enough with stop (without going through base), and don't spin tap.


'Wrist torque' for screws. Super easy. Just screw until stop, then maybe 1/4 turn more. I use my drill with clutch, then 'torque' by hand. After a few you'll get it.

The tolerances for inserts are tighter than for alpine mounts. In either case, install the bindings while epoxy sets. You can use the binding to align minor deviations with the insert locations.

Test mount:

 

[GB_Ski]

I can see the dentist freehand being more than precise enough. For the rest of us; yeah totally agree.

It's more about the value of items you are drilling and cost of an error. If I'm doing 2x4 lumbers, who gives a crap. But if I'm drilling a $500 - $1,000 item? Yea, you better believe I'm using drill press.

 

[Doug Briggs]

I rarely (once or twice in 10+ years?) used a torque screwdriver in the shop. I do use the clutch on our 'screw shooter' (drill with built in clutch specifically for applications requiring accurate torque tolerances.) At home I do the quick work with a hand drill with the clutch set low and finish by hand. I do test the screws after the screw shooter with a hand screwdriver. Better to under-torque with the screw shooter and finish by hand than to over-torque by any method.

I use SVST's binding glue (at the shop) or TiteBond 2 or 3 (depending on what I have on hand in MY shop.) Epoxy works great until you want the bindings on another pair of skis. Then you may have a challenge removing the screws. I don't believe epoxy gives you any more retention from pulling screws out while skiing than SVST or TB. Better ski construction with integral mounting plates (not surface mounted plates, but the material built into the ski to reinforcement the binding mount zone) does the job for most. Heli-coils are what I've had pro freestyle athletes request for new ski mounts. It isn't the bonding adhesive but rather the strength of the material screwed into and the surface area of the bond that counts.

I never put more nor less than 3 full turns on a tap when tapping skis with metal sheets. A) you run the risk of tapping beyond 9.5 mm and pimpling your base and B) you want the screw to make the threads in the core proper. Tapping more than 3 full turns just removes material better left in place for holding the threads. Tapping is done to insure that the screw doesn't separate (delaminate) the metal layer from the rest of the ski as it is screwed in.

 

[MacO512]

I rarely (once or twice in 10+ years?) used a torque screwdriver in the shop. I do use the clutch on our 'screw shooter' (drill with built in clutch specifically for applications requiring accurate torque tolerances.) At home I do the quick work with a hand drill with the clutch set low and finish by hand. I do test the screws after the screw shooter with a hand screwdriver. Better to under-torque with the screw shooter and finish by hand than to over-torque by any method.

I use SVST's binding glue (at the shop) or TiteBond 2 or 3 (depending on what I have on hand in MY shop.) Epoxy works great until you want the bindings on another pair of skis. Then you may have a challenge removing the screws. I don't believe epoxy gives you any more retention from pulling screws out while skiing than SVST or TB. Better ski construction with integral mounting plates (not surface mounted plates, but the material built into the ski to reinforcement the binding mount zone) does the job for most. Heli-coils are what I've had pro freestyle athletes request for new ski mounts. It isn't the bonding adhesive but rather the strength of the material screwed into and the surface area of the bond that counts.

I never put more nor less than 3 full turns on a tap when tapping skis with metal sheets. A) you run the risk of tapping beyond 9.5 mm and pimpling your base and B) you want the screw to make the threads in the core proper. Tapping more than 3 full turns just removes material better left in place for holding the threads. Tapping is done to insure that the screw doesn't separate (delaminate) the metal layer from the rest of the ski as it is screwed in.

Great post.

So I take it the idea of preferring Heli-Coils is there is a bond to a larger surface of the ski material which should make it stronger? Interesting idea.

 

[MacO512]

FYI this is the process I've used for flawlessly mounting bindings during the past years. I always refer back to these vids. This kid has the process down from A to Z in parts 1 & 2... including the critical finesse part of using a countersink drill bit and I added an auto push button center punch on the crosshairs on the template to center your holes. This is the magic sauce... that and using the proper Wintersteiger 3.6x9mm (wood), 4.1x9mm (skis w/ metal) drill bits from Tognar.com (drill press totally optional, I have access to one but never had to use it. Okay I'm a dentist so keeping the comparatively HUGE drill straight is NO PROBLEM!!! LOL ) allows the binding to be flat on the ski. If you're new to this, practice on wood 1st to get your hands accustomed to the movements. ;



Countersink kit on amazon. I've tried all the sizes in the kit and much prefer using the largest size countersink bit. No need to sink it all the way. Just a little pressure goes a long way if your bit is new and sharp:
I also use Roo Glue from Tognar to seal the holes. Top notch stuff! Once you open it, seal the top w/ aluminum foil screwed on under the cap. That way when you finish and put it away, it has an airtight seal and will last for years.

This video is ok but not nearly as accurate or simple as the process detailed in this thread. This video wastes a lot of effort doing measurements that aren't really necessary. I really didn't like 3 things though;

First the way he drilled 100% freehand with zero guide. At the least just drill through a block of wood and use that. Guide is even better - drill press is best.

Second that he drilled a pilot hole with the template taped to the ski - a punch is quicker, more accurate, plus much less damage if any measurements are wrong. Can double check all punch marks are perfect before drilling. He double checks so many measurements earlier then quickly jumps to doing irreversible drilling steps very quickly with zero confirmations.

Biggest thing I didn't like is when he started the actual final drilling holes - and still had left the paper templates taped to the ski. He already drilled a pilot hole, so what purpose does that paper serve? This makes it difficult to see how close you are drilling to the top sheet, aligned on your pilot hole, and drilling to the perfect depth.

Looks like his install came out very good but those 3 things just made me cringe.

Maybe I'll try putting some of this process on youtube when I do my install... would be nice to get a video on this thread excellent process.

 

[MacO512]

Binding Freedom confirmed torque should be 4NM for both inserts and 4NM for the machine screws.

I'll plan to practice a few times on pieces of wood.

 

[Uncle-A]

Binding Freedom confirmed torque should be 4NM for both inserts and 4NM for the machine screws.

I'll plan to practice a few times on pieces of wood.

I was wondering, would the 4NM change based on the different materials that make up the core of a ski?

 

[MacO512]

I was wondering, would the 4NM change based on the different materials that make up the core of a ski?

I would assume not, I think they adjust for the difference by the drill bit - ski says if its 4.1mm wide drill bit (normally metal topsheet) or 3.6mm (only wood). 4NM isn't that much its only 2.9ft/lb while my car wheels are 129ft/lb.

Probably better to look at inch/lbs... 4nm is 35.4in/lbs
#10 gauge ground wire in my electrical panel is 20in/lbs while neutral/hots are 35 in/lbs. Main lugs are 250.

So yeah that 4nm is certainly tight, you have to put some effort with a screwdriver. But its not tons of effort and any socket would be wayyy too much.

I always like getting the torque specs for these things... yeah once you've installed 5-10 skis you probably have an accurate feel by hand and then don't need to. But this being my first install it helps a lot.

I've seen with electrical installs DIY more often overtorque and crush the wires which makes them prone to fail. Too little torque and connections can wiggle loose. Too much and you damage the materials too making the connection worse.

Having two of my bindings rip off in the last two months I suspect the ski shop that mounted them made a major mistake such as wrong torque. I want to get it perfect this time.

 

[Yo Momma]

This video is ok but not nearly as accurate or simple as the process detailed in this thread. This video wastes a lot of effort doing measurements that aren't really necessary. I really didn't like 3 things though;

First the way he drilled 100% freehand with zero guide. At the least just drill through a block of wood and use that. Guide is even better - drill press is best.

Second that he drilled a pilot hole with the template taped to the ski - a punch is quicker, more accurate, plus much less damage if any measurements are wrong. Can double check all punch marks are perfect before drilling. He double checks so many measurements earlier then quickly jumps to doing irreversible drilling steps very quickly with zero confirmations.

Biggest thing I didn't like is when he started the actual final drilling holes - and still had left the paper templates taped to the ski. He already drilled a pilot hole, so what purpose does that paper serve? This makes it difficult to see how close you are drilling to the top sheet, aligned on your pilot hole, and drilling to the perfect depth.

Looks like his install came out very good but those 3 things just made me cringe.

Maybe I'll try putting some of this process on youtube when I do my install... would be nice to get a video on this thread excellent process.

Agreed. I use a punch then remove the paper as it's much more accurate.

 

[tomahawkins]

A couple things I'm doing differently:

1. A 5/32" with a shaft collar set to a depth of 9.5mm. Ski binding drill bits (Tognar) are turned on a lathe, which removes the the side cutting edge. Real drill bits just drill better.
   • https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/130/2798/2908A37
   • https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/130/1457/9414T4
2. No more wasting time with pilot holes. A good counter punch followed up with this 5/32" is all that is needed.

Note the Moment Commander 92s.

 

[Uncle-A]

A couple things I'm doing differently:

1. A 5/32" with a shaft collar set to a depth of 9.5mm. Ski binding drill bits (Tognar) are turned on a lathe, which removes the the side cutting edge. Real drill bits just drill better.
   • https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/130/2798/2908A37
   • https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/130/1457/9414T4
2. No more wasting time with pilot holes. A good counter punch followed up with this 5/32" is all that is needed.

Note the Moment Commander 92s.

View attachment 231454 View attachment 231455

I wonder how many people have used a drill press to mount bindings?