Women’s World Cup 2021

[geepers]

Assume you mean MG-D finish.
I timed 2:45 from when she crashes into the padding to PV start.
From PV finish to gate replacement- looks like the guy places the panel and skis away after 2:10. Mikaela’s final beeps starts at 3:25
That’s on Peacock which is Eurovision feed, no commentary.

I timed start to start as that basically covers everything that happens between one racer commencing the course and the next. That timing lines up - course was around 1:22.
That's from some-one's posted recording of the live broadcast on youtube. It's continuous. There's other recordings (skifan?) where the broadcast was sliced and spliced.

BTW (and 'scuse my ignorance) but what is it with the beeping in the start house? Is there some optional window for the racer to depart or do they have to go on a mark? I assume the clock starts when they break through the start mechanism.

 

[Primoz]

Assume you mean MG-D finish.
I timed 2:45 from when she crashes into the padding to PV start.
From PV finish to gate replacement- looks like the guy places the panel and skis away after 2:10. Mikaela’s final beeps starts at 3:25
That’s on Peacock which is Eurovision feed, no commentary.

Yesterday, start interval for 8-1 racers in second run was 2min. So either way, when Vlhova would finish, Shiffrin would be standing in start house for another 52sec or so. With course work going on, they adjust start interval so, that they are back to normal clock and interval (if you have chance you can actually hear start watch beeping even if start is delayed and noone will be starting in that interval). So once course was ready, they were waiting for "next start interval". That's normal procedure on all races except for SL, where there's no strict start interval defined. In all disciplines but SL, start interval is definited by time, while with SL it's "finish + X seconds", therefore no start watch in start house and they can easier adjust start interval due course work, crashes, gate changes etc.

BTW (and 'scuse my ignorance) but what is it with the beeping in the start house? Is there some optional window for the racer to depart or do they have to go on a mark? I assume the clock starts when they break through the start mechanism.

With every discipline except for SL, racer has to start within +-3 sec of start time. That's why you have start watch beeping. You can start max 3 sec early or max 3 sec late, otherwise you are DSQ. Don't take my word, as those 3 sec is from my memory. As I wrote earlier for GS, it's same for all disciplines except for SL, that there's start interval defined on team captains meeting previous evening.

 

[S.H.]

With every discipline except for SL, racer has to start within +-3 sec of start time. That's why you have start watch beeping. You can start max 3 sec early or max 3 sec late, otherwise you are DSQ. Don't take my word, as those 3 sec is from my memory.

all disciplines (ok, except parallel) have a 10-second start window.

DH/SG/GS is +/- 5 sec from the start time (the higher pitched beep).
SL is 10-sec from the "go" command.

 

[Primoz]

Ah ok... I had somewhere in my memory it's +-3sec (so 6 sec window), but obviously I was wrong. Thanks for correction

 

[Muleski]

Up to 40 comments on the article on skiracing.com
Clearly English not a native language, or no working proficiency for many of them.
Most either love PV, or.....do NOT....and are big MS fans. I don't see a lot of objectivity. But, congrats to skiracing.com Did not realize that they had such an international following.
It's pretty interesting reading!

 

[James]

So what happens in events where there’s a big crash with an injury and an evac, how much warning before start does the racer who was in the start get?

Is there a rule about being in the start house a certain time before?

all disciplines (ok, except parallel) have a 10-second start window.

DH/SG/GS is +/- 5 sec from the start time (the higher pitched beep).
SL is 10-sec from the "go" command.

So, when the guy (sometimes) says five seconds”, and the beeps start, do you have five seconds after the end of the beeps? Most seem to go about 3secs/beeps in.

 

[S.H.]

So, when the guy (sometimes) says five seconds”, and the beeps start, do you have five seconds after the end of the beeps? Most seem to go about 3secs/beeps in.

yes, exactly.

feuz seems to go after the beeps end a lot.

There's a 10-second warning, then 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, go. So you have from the 5 to 5 seconds after go. At WC, I think you can choose the language of the countdown or just have the beeps. Not sure about choosing the language, but I've heard english, italian, french, german, and just beeps at the same race, so I'm guessing here.

This is the rule that they (used to) violate in combined so that DH skiers who had no intention of skiing the SL could get another training run without screwing up the flip for other athletes. The DH would leave the start >5 sec after "go", and therefore be DQed.

 

[Ivan]

Well, here are my two cents. Disclaimer: I've never been to a World Cup race, let alone participated in organizing a World Cup race, so please take my words with a grain of salt.

First, the exact time between PV's finish and the beginning of the 60-second countdown ("Next racer starts in 0:59") was almost exactly 90 seconds. As far as I understand from what @Primoz wrote above, they had to wait these 60 seconds no matter what because of the rules, but I may be wrong. If I am right, though, then the actual repair took only 90 seconds. Perhaps could have been faster, but doesn't sound too terrible.

Now, the thing is, not one but two skiers crashed right before PV started. First, Nina O'Brien crashed and Gasienica-Daniel's start was delayed. Then Gasienica-Daniel crashed and PV's start was delayed. Hence, two observations.

First, as noted above, PV and MS were in almost "equal conditions" as far as the time from the start of the previous racer to the time of their own start goes. MS was delayed a bit more, but both were delayed and the difference is not that big.

Second, MS actually had to start after three consecutive delays. Even if each of them took only a couple of minutes, the total delay, relative to the "ordinary course of events," could very well have been over 8 minutes. MS might not have seen when exactly PV started (don't know how likely it is, but possible), so she might have though that the organizers had iced her for 8 minutes when she made her comment (however, I haven't seen her exact words).

Anyway, while I greatly admire MS and wish her all the best in the future, I personally think that her critical comments were somewhat unwarranted. To reiterate, she faced a very unusual and unfortunate turn of events, but the organizers are hardly to blame. PV also faced a delay and dealt with it better.

 

[S.H.]

I do think the gate replacement took longer than usual (for world cup) and than warranted, but ... probably only by 30-60 seconds. The number of delays in the last 8 was high, and that probably didn't help.

What was a bit weird was that it seemed like they pulled MS out of the start pretty late ... it was clear that the gate needed repair right after PV hit it, then it seemed like it took ~30 sec before that got relayed to the start (MS's poles already over the wand and had started her routine). That seems like somebody dropped the ball ... but I don't know that that's on the race organizers, seems like a mistake by the jury (or poor communication between the jury and the starter/timing).

Overall ... it wasn't great, but it wasn't terrible. MS admitted as much in her later social media posts. This is the 3rd? time this year she's let a 1st-run lead slip away. I think that, plus the lack of aggressive skiing in GS R2, is what's eating at her more than anything.

 

[Rudi Riet]

First, the exact time between PV's finish and the beginning of the 60-second countdown ("Next racer starts in 0:59") was almost exactly 90 seconds. As far as I understand from what @Primoz wrote above, they had to wait these 60 seconds no matter what because of the rules, but I may be wrong. If I am right, though, then the actual repair took only 90 seconds. Perhaps could have been faster, but doesn't sound too terrible.

Correct: all GS, SG, and DH races have the start set at a fixed interval. If there is a hold due to a missed interval, the starter waits until the next fixed interval to start. Given it was a 2 minute interval between the top 8 racers, the start time (i.e. when the countdown beep hits zero) would be 2 minutes, 4 minutes, 6 minutes, et al.

Slalom is different as it doesn't have a fixed interval. It's also the only discipline that allows hiking to make up for missed gates.

 

[Ivan]

First, the exact time between PV's finish and the beginning of the 60-second countdown ("Next racer starts in 0:59") was almost exactly 90 seconds.

Actually, I was wrong with my math. It did indeed take 2 minutes 30 seconds, which I admit is a bit too long. Let's keep in mind, however, that the volunteers on the hill might have been busy assisting the previous two racers, which, as @S.H. mentioned, probably didn't help.

@Rudi Riet Strangely, it appears that the start times of the last 5 racers on this video are 40:57, 42:57, 45:27, 49:27, 54:03, which don't quite align with your theory. But I don't know what exactly was going on.

 

[Ivan]

Let me add one last thing. Sorry if I'm being a devil's advocate here, but let's remember that we are talking about the covid times rather that the normal times. I don't know what the conditions for organizing the World Cup races in Slovakia are, but I know that in some other sports the conditions have been modified after the beginning of the pandemic (in tennis, line judges have been replaced with machines and players need to get their own towels). It is totally plausible that the number of volunteer might have been reduced at the request of local authorities. If this was the case, then even otherwise "routine" tasks would take longer.

Again, might very well be the case that the organizers didn't handle the situation great, but at the same time I think we need to appreciate the effort that it takes to organize big sporting events during these unusual times. I still think Mikaela was a bit too harsh with her criticism.

 

[sparty]

Let me add one last thing. Sorry if I'm being a devil's advocate here, but let's remember that we are talking about the covid times rather that the normal times. I don't know what the conditions for organizing the World Cup races in Slovakia are, but I know that in some other sports the conditions have been modified after the beginning of the pandemic (in tennis, line judges have been replaced with machines and players need to get their own towels). It is totally plausible that the number of volunteer might have been reduced at the request of local authorities. If this was the case, then even otherwise "routine" tasks would take longer.

Again, might very well be the case that the organizers didn't handle the situation great, but at the same time I think we need to appreciate the effort that it takes to organize big sporting events during these unusual times. I still think Mikaela was a bit too harsh with her criticism.

While you have a point in theory, it shouldn't take that long to replace a gate, even with screw-ins. The long interval used should also make it easier to have enough course crew on the hill (all else being equal, it's a lot tougher to do course maintenance when you've got racers coming at you every 30 seconds, plus more will go by while a given course worker is on his/her way back to the top).

That being said, I'd assume human error before I'd assume intent to affect the outcome, if we're talking 30-60 seconds longer than expected. Replacing gates quickly gets roughly 100% harder when you've got a racer coming at you, so I'd assume it would be even worse knowing that you're holding up a live TV broadcast.

Hmm...just watched the video link posted...had they started to put the panel back on the bent gate before the replacement pole arrived? At 52:00, there's a brief shot of the repair, and it looks like someone with a spare gate is skiing away and the other course worker is putting the panel back on (despite the turning pole being bent), then someone else shows up with another spare gate and it looks like he ceases reinstalling the panel. Then at 52:44, we get a brief shot of the panel just about reattached...44 seconds to unscrew a gate, screw in a new gate (they still use screw-ins for WC, right?), and then install the panel doesn't seem horrible—maybe not as fast as I'd expect a crew to pull it off at that level, but that hardly seems like foot-dragging.

 

[Average Joe]

Does anyone know if the linked video above is an accurate timeline? I apologize in advance if it's not, because my comments below assume it was a live feed.
If it's accurate then I believe Mikaela was a victim of both gross incompetence and a race run in violation of FIS and World Cup rules.

In the linked video, at 49:27 Petra starts, and we can clearly see (at 50:29) she breaks the fourth to last gate. No problem, happens often.

Since each gate in a WC event has an assigned course worker with drill, key, and spare gates readily available, this should have been replaced starting..... immediately.

Nope.

Fifty eight seconds passes (51:27) the sequence is underway, and just as Mikaela is getting ready to launch, she gets pulled out of the start.
The video goes to highlights, etc, but at 52:00, 1:30 past the time that the gate was broken, Mikaela on ice for 37 seconds, and we cut to a Course Crew worker sliding the red panel over THE BROKEN RED GATE.
Really? Restart a World Cup race with a broken gate?
Luckily, someone shows up with a spare red gate (they accidentally sent someone down with a blue gate) , so now (52:04) the process starts anew.
Will Mikaela start at the next 2:00 interval (53:27)?

Nope.
How long should it take a competent World Cup course crew member to unscrew and replace a gate , slide the FIS panel over, stretch the elastic strap over the pole, and slide it down? If they are properly positioned and supplied, 25-30 seconds, maybe 45-60 seconds if the weather is bad, you're hands are cold and you fumble with the new FIS mandated elastic strap.

Here, 2 minutes 16 seconds elapsed between the time the gate was broken and the repair was complete The total time from broken gate to restart was 3 minutes 31 seconds.

The Chief of Race and Chief of Course are responsible to provide and manage a competent course crew, and they did not.

And then, for unknown reasons, they decide to create an new interval - 33 seconds beyond the posted interval - and Mikaela leaves the gate at 54:00 (again, I'm assuming the video is a live feed).
I'm not sure how a 2:33 second interval jives with the WC rules. Posted intervals allow a racer sufficient time to back out, recollect their thoughts, and prepare anew. Revising these times during a race? Hmmm.

Why the long delay to begin the repair, I would assume that the course crew would have immediately noticed the broken red gate, but maybe they were distracted watching their hometown girl on the Jumbotron? Maybe the Finish Referee or Jury member could have noticed, or was the activity in the finish arena more interesting?

And FWIW, many of the panels were not at their proper FIS height, you can clearly see the mandatory FIS white stripe well below many of the panels in the race video. Of course, if you're an exceptionally tall athlete, it just might allow better visibility at GS speeds.....but that's just conjecture on my part.

 

[James]

She did get second. We’re talking like she was tenth. She left a lot on the table the first run, and a lot the second.
I don’t imagine this being as big a deal if her mindset in the start house is the pre tragedy, “I’m smoking this thing”.
Or maybe it wasn’t like that always, she did puke up at the start of the Olympics. But maybe then she’s able to talk herself into it, and now not quite.
I just think that her pre 2020 self would laugh this off. Her crew/mom may not be helping by setting this up or over reacting. I have no idea.

 

[geepers]

And FWIW, many of the panels were not at their proper FIS height, you can clearly see the mandatory FIS white stripe well below many of the panels in the race video. Of course, if you're an exceptionally tall athlete, it just might allow better visibility at GS speeds.....but that's just conjecture on my part.

Well you'd still have the small problem that Alice Robinson at 1.63m vs Shiffrin' at 1.7m had the fastest time for the 2nd run.

But let's not let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.

She did get second.

No - Shiffrin got 3rd. Alice Robinson got 2nd.

 

[Primoz]

I would have never wrote what I wrote few posts earlier, if I would actually watch race instead of saw just interview with Shiffrin where she was talking about 8 minute gate change delay, and trust her on that, which as I guess we all agree now is total BS. With the delay, that really was, it's no big deal and completely normal thing. It might be slightly slow, but there can be 100 reasons for this, but it wasn't extra long nor extra slow. It was more or less normal issues, and certainly not anything to make big deal out of it. With actual times and delays available (not that BS from Shiffrin's interview), there's really absolutely no place for any conspiracy theories or whatever. All was just fine and "business as usual" on WC races. Even though in theory every gate has it's person, it's not so easy as someone might think. Most of course workers are on foot and on crampons (none of them is professional climber to feel super comfortable on crampons, and none of them is professional course worker). With GS that means, they are at least 30m away from the gate, sometimes gate higher or lower. These guys don't have spare panels and spare gates with them... they have shovel to work on course. There are crews that handle gate changes, and they normally ski down sometimes even 10 gates down to get to the gate, and fix the problem. Problems with gates are communicated on radio and especially on races, which are not held for long and very often, one of two FIS race directors gives command to go (with more experienced teams, this command can come from local some local, but always goes through radio to have course clear and start stop). This takes quite few seconds already, so changing gate in middle of the race is never 10sec work. Believe it or not, it's way slower on WC then on local hill. First, on local hill you can stand 1m from the gate and all is good (I have been on few EC races, which are still way above level of local race, but compared to WC, it's like unofficial training run, where you can do anything you want and any way you want). On WC there are strict rules (due safety and due TV coverage) where you can be, so distances to gates are slightly different.
Also height of panels.... yeah they go up and down during race. Slippers go by, fix them occasionally, and they are always everywhere, from super low, to super high and to proper level, but until now noone made issues out of this.

 

[Blue Streak]

This is the 3rd? time this year she's let a 1st-run lead slip away. I think that, plus the lack of aggressive skiing in GS R2, is what's eating at her more than anything.

What he said.
My first Impression was that she was skiing like she had a two second lead instead of 0.16 seconds IIRC.

 

[4ster]

C’mon! We’ve all seen much, much longer delays due to weather or injuries. Maybe it jumbled Shiffrin’s prep, maybe not. Fact is she made a mistake & still managed 3rd. Petra went all out to win but Robinson smoked them both in run 2. End of story!
Let‘s please move on...

Alpine

Mar. 12, 2021

FIS Alpine World Cup Women's Slalom

Are, SWE

 

[Swede]

Red Gate Gate.